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Old August 5th, 2012, 08:54 AM   #31
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noted ELTWIN. I will send everything to fox, and see what my options are. I was using mobile one.....but again starvation seems to have been the problem... the little nozzles inside are soooo tiny...no wonder a bit of metal clogged them.

Once i get a chance to talk to fox on monday and get what i need sent out to him, ill be back on to figure out the cleaning.(i have a dip tank at my rents car shop, but last time i remembered, you have to remove all orings, bearings, etc....which if ducati made a "rebuild kit" that came with everything i would remove it all, but I dont want to get into removing all 40 orings, etc. The cases actually look pretty clean. Im going to carefully solvent rinse them in the bath tank and use a aersol cleaning to wash the rest... Then ill get some cheap oil and my autotrigger windex bottle nozzle and semi pressure wash the pieces with oil. oh course ill need to go through the ports with air, qtip, and wire to make sure everything is clear.

Ill update the discussion with fox, then start buying the dremel attachments for polishing the cases.

I still think i need a better solution to high RPM oil starvation.

thanks again guys.
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Old August 5th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #32
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When I was in tech school years ago I was talking with one of my instructors that ran 1/4 and 1/8 mile drag and funny car about engines and oil system mods. From what he told me, and I've heard it other places as well, when you start running higher capacity oil pumps and oversizing journals you can end up with a negative effect from the lubrication system, for one you create more high rpm drag with the pump, but also when you push too much oil by solid bearings, such as rod bearing on your motor, it can actually erode the bearing surfaces almost like how a presure washer can cut into soft surfaces. Now he wasn't a ducati race motor builder, so checking with a machine shop that builds duc motors is a good place to go. As a basic principle, the faster your engine goes, the faster your oil pump pushes oil, but oil drains at the same rate regaurdless of rpm. THe real detriment to oil presure is pulling air into the pump because the oil is not drainign back into the sump fast enough. Air can compress so it creates an immedeate drop in oil presure and capacity, in turn exposing you rengine to metal on metal conatct of moving parts. I have also seen some threads here where someone was running their mains dry and opened up the case (quite a bit) for oil return and also JB welded metal screens into the more opened holes to keep large peices from reaching the sump in a failure. I have seen this done with car engines as well, when they oil returns from the heads were opened screens were installed to keep bits from reaching the sump in a failure minimizing additional damage. I don't think anyone would waste the time with a dye grinder polishing the tops of V8 engine heads and the insides of the engine block unless there was a noted benefit in oil return. on that note, It might be helpfull to run a true oil presure guage on your bike with a warning light that you can set the trigger presure on. The little on off switch with the stock set up is more of a safety than a true measuring device. and how would you even test to be sure the stock sensor is functioning in it's proper range?
Lastly- sometimes the smallest defects can cause catastrophic failure in an otherwise good engine, the guy putting your engine together, the parts delivery guy, or even the manufacturer, could have dropped the rod bearing off the bench and dinged it before putting it in your motor, while it may not have been bad enough to cause and instant failure, it could have been just off enough to wear unevenly and fail earlier than expected. once the bearing spins it shuts of the oil supply from the journal, once the bearing burns out, now the journal has no restriction and causes an overall presure loss to the rest of the engine causing a chain reaction of failure.
I know that was alot to read, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.
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Old August 5th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #33
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Good work! I believe you can check your own Valve clearances from what I've seen you do on your own thus far. It isn't difficult, especially with the Heads off. You will need a set of Feeler Gauges and just follow the Manual. Doubtful you will need to make any adjustments. All the gaskets associated with the Cam cover are reusable. Buy some 3 Bond from Ducati and apply in the required spots. It is also used to seal the side case, I believe.
Also, there are 5 green O Rings used to help seal the Cylinder and metal Cylinder Gasket. To install them over the Head Bolts without damaging them, I cut a finger off a rubber glove and put this over the Head Stud, then Lubed it with Vasoline, then slid the O Ring over and down the Stud. Worked great; just a thought.

New Belts.
Spark plugs should be fine, but what the heck...
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Old August 6th, 2012, 07:13 AM   #34
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Spudd, im not too worried about the labor as I am buying a shim kit for 150 bucks. ha. a shop may only charge me 50-60 bucks if the heads are off and they can do a shim for me.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 07:52 AM   #35
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Your tech school guys gave you good info eric. Excess pressure will definitely erode bearings and rob power but cannot be created providing the pressure release spring is correct and bypass valve is large enough. With the greater bearing clearances required in drag motors pressures drop if the volume is not increased to compensate for the easier oil flow past the bearings. In my experience engines only dry sump themselves if too much oil is flowed to the top end and cannot return rapidly enough. V8's have an enormous volume available in the rocker covers... something like 4 to 5 litres in total. Also a V8 crank assembly at 7000rpm can carry as much as 3 litres of oil in its windage.... hence the importance of crank scrapers and scavenger trays to direct that windage volume back to the sump as well.

However, I cannot see any way that our bike engines can store more than about half a litre in the cylinder heads (even if they were entirely filled with oil) so I believe dry sumping these engines is an impossibility unless there is already way too little oil in the engine to begin with.

Mobil 1 would not be an oil I would recommend for a Duc engine Quacker. The 0-40 is MUCH too thin! I might use the 15-50 if I had no other options...... if your problem was caused by oil starvation both bearings would have failed similarly at the same rate because both are fed from the same source.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 08:13 AM   #36
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my guess is starvation from wheelies...it would explain why the horizontal cylinder cooked, then the vertical started cooking once the horizontal's brass clogged the oil lines

(this was a joke btw)

Last edited by Quackquack; August 6th, 2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #37
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Spoke with Ben over at Fox Performance.

His suggestion was to send the crank and rods in for him to look it over. In a nutshell,if the crank needs to be serviced it will cost $375 to resurface the areas. This will bring it back to OEM specifications/Tolerances. He will also sell me a set of bearings and ensure the fitment is correct by sending me a ready to put in crank.

As far as balancing, knife-edge, or polish guys, he said if i am not planning on upgrading the components, none of them would be required.

If i planned on upgrading to high compression piston's and Carrillo rods, then I would need to. adding up, that would be around $1000+ which i dont think my riding style accounts for dropping that much into engine work.

so with all that said...ive seen a few used(assumable) low mileage crank/rod assemblies. They claim tolerances have been checked and are within OEM specifications.

I didnt get to ask him what the benefit would be having him provide services over finding a good used set would be...but obviously one would feel more confident that the crank was perfect than a worn used set. Then again maybe its all going to be on how he feels the condition of the rods are. If its like what ELTWIN said, it might be time for new rods..(550+ for carrillo?) yikes

what performance feel am I going to get with a OEM piston and Carriollo lightweight steel rods(134 grams less a rod)? quicker acceleration?

opinions?

Last edited by Quackquack; August 6th, 2012 at 11:38 AM.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #38
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the after market rodsare built with two benefits in mind, strenght and weight. IF the rod is stronger, it will handle faster accell and higher combustion presures that tuning, porting and just aggresive riding tend to create. The lmas reduction increases the power used to turn the back wheel that is normally being used to accellerate the rods from 0-200mph within about 2" of distance inside the engine. It may not seem like much but if you figure out the newtons of force required to move that mass to that speed in that amount of time, then multiply that by your rpm, you'l find out just how much power gets used to move your engine rather than your bike. It's the same concept as a lightened flywheel, but the mass reduction in the rods won't affect your idle or smoothness off the line like the flywheel does, tehcnically reducing the mas travelining up and down should smooth out the stroke if you think about it with physics- object in motion tends to stay in motion in a straight line at a constant speed unleess acted on by another force- the rods and pistons are going one direction fast and then have to go backthe other direction just as fast- that's alot of "another force" such as your engine power being used to handle this task.

Honestly, if it were my bike, and the expense is considered from the point of veiw of someone on a budget but loves his bike, here's where I'd spend the money
Rods- ti or light steel, but definitely worth the money for strength
extrude hone the heads- I'd strip them, send them out, and reassemble them myself, it doesnt require resizing valves or matching the intake- check with the shop to see if the seats will need to be recut or not depending on their process
1098r main bearings- I'd do some research, but I've read a few times that these are better
clean and reuse stock pistons- the high performance ones typically come with 1 compression ring and do not add strength and longevity, if the walls and rings are clean reuse the rings
polish and knife edge crank- reduces mass and resistance and will match up nicely with a set of upgraded rods
lightened flywheel- you're using it as a track bike so this makes sense- if it were a commuter i'd stick with stock
clean and polish case, oil return on jugs, open the return galleys a little
clean the valves and replace the stem seals
new belts
and just because I'm a safety nut- get the speedy moto water pump cover just in case
Put it all together and drive it like you stole it
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Old August 6th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #39
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Im going to carefully solvent rinse them in the bath tank and use a aersol cleaning to wash the rest


Careful what solvent you use to do this with it might not do the o-rings and seals left in the cases any favors.
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Old August 6th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #40
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use an orange oil based degreaser , and a bathmat in the tub- keep you from scratching up the tub and catching hell from the wife, and it wont damage the seals.
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Old August 13th, 2012, 09:39 AM   #41
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So ive been debating my options and taking in some input from various realms...ive come up with the below questions that are stumping me and my the two options that I have narrowed down to based on me being on a budget and me wanting to ensure reliability.

opinions?

Questions:
1.) This is a base model 1098. I am being told the main bearings/holders are junk and should be upgraded. Not necessarily to the ceramic but the newer ducati bearings. However, when i look at the PN from ducati microfilm for 1098, 1098r, 1198, 1198r, the main bearings and holders all have the same number....
2.) If i decide i need to replace the main bearings inwhich i will have to heat up the case to do so, then should i replace the other output bearings?
3.) im debating whether or not i should do the preload measurement and assy of the cases with crank. Currently I am being quoted 2 hours for assembly +40 in shims and I will get back the case with crankshaft ready for me to install the cover components and go.

CRANKSHAFT/CON ROD OPTIONOption 1: The "reliable stocker"
1.) Gotham Used Crankshaft/Conrods: $345 parts
2.) ConRod ARP Bolts: $140parts
3.) Race Tolerance spec'ed con rod bearings: $120-parts $130-labor
4.) Component Balance: $149-200
--------------------------------------------------------
parts-$605 Labor: $330
Option 2: Upgraded Aftermarket ConRod"
(not alot of good support on this as everyone says i need to include new pistons..but its not in my budget. However, if you take new Conrods @ 550 minus the price for things i would have used for Stock Conrods(ARP bolts and i believe the labor for race specing they wont be neede, then the price difference is only $371 for an upgraded performance benefit that results in lighter rotating mass(quicking acceleration and power to the rear wheel), stronger and reliable con rods.)
1.) Gotham Used Crankshaft/Conrods: $300 parts
2.) Race Tolerance spec'ed con rod bearings: $120-parts
3.) Carrillo Con-Rods: $550 (will it have the Guidon Pin and bushings? I assume it wont come with Rod Bearings.)
4.) Crank Lightening and Balance: $399
--------------------------------------------------------
parts-$907 Labor: $399
Optional Labor to be decided:
1.) Upgrade Main Bearings and Races:
a.) Parts: $472 (both bearings and races)
b.) Shims: $40 for 2
c.) Labor at shop: 2 hours (~200)
------------------------------------------------------
Parts-$512 Labor: $200
2.) Replace other bearings?

Mandatory Parts:
0.) Head Gasket kit: $312 (no one has yet to tell me what this comes with.....)
1.) Top Head Gasket: $116.39 X 2= $233
2.) Cylinder/Crankcase Gasket: Reusable
3.) Con Rod Top Guidon pin Bushing: Should be resuable after I mic it.
4.) Head Bolts: should be useable but only 10 a bolt.
5.) Green o-rings: should be useable but only 3each
6.) DucBond Sealant: ~$25
7.) Belts: $130
8.) Shims: ~$80
9.) Elastic Stop Ring nut: $9 (timing gear nut i mangled)
10.) Valve Cover Gasket: Resuseable
----------------------------------------------------------------
Parts: $417 or head gasket kit $500

Last edited by Quackquack; August 13th, 2012 at 10:29 AM.
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #42
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option 2!!!
replace the mains yourself
do not re- use wrist pin bearings even if you stay option 1, they don't cost much especially compared to the time and money to tear down the motor.
Valve cover gaskets are reusable
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:51 AM   #43
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Did you crashed the bike or even laid it down while running?
I've seen many engines with similar rod damage issues due to oil starvation while on its side, you wont notice it right away but will score the rod bearing a bit and will
fail within a 1000 miles @ the most......
Have you checked the oil pump to see if it turns over smooth or opened it to see if it has scored or metal residue?
I've almost never seen both ros shells damaged @ the same (both failing but only one really bad like yours) and I think it,s due to the failing ones are farther away in the oil circuit.......
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Old August 13th, 2012, 10:56 AM   #44
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devimau:
1.) interesting you mention that. It was on its side and my brother's body for maybe 30-50seconds till i picked it up off him. Bike was in neutral with engine on. id say within 1000 miles ago.
2.) No i havent checked the oil pump...what is procedure to do so and I will report tonight.
3.) The vertical shells were not necessary damaged....when i was taking it all apart, the shells were frozen on the crankshaft which i assume occurred after the horizontal shells ground down, and the moments after when my oil light came on as I was pulling off the highway ramp).
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Old August 13th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #45
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good call!
The oil pump is easy to inspect- turn the gear by hand and see how smooth it feels first, then its just a few bolts to take it apart and you can see if the gears or case are abnormally worn. Again, I though you'd have already taken that little bit apart on your own. but you know what Samual L. Jackson says about Assumption- it makes and ass out of you and Umption.
Once one bearing shell comes apart- the oil is no longer restricted and the presure will drop casuing subsequent failures to any other component relying on the presure.its like getting a big hole on the side of a garden hose- there is little presure left at the nozzle.By shutting it off quickly you likey saved damage from the rest of the engine.
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