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Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:54 AM   #16
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:44 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by tye1138 View Post
I'm so confused...

How can you put a $13,500 675 triple against a $15,000 899cc twin? There is no replacement for displacement... and you can get the Triumph for well below $13k... you can't get the 899 below $15k as we found out in another thread.

I also thought it was interesting the reviewers discussed how good the 899's slipper clutch is, yet Ducati never mentions a slipper clutch in the production notes of the machine.

So did the magazine test an 899 that didn't exist? Or is Ducati secretly hiding the fact the 899 has a slipper?

So confused!
Yeah, I also found it odd that the owners manual for my 899 states that it has a slipper..... Page 38 EBC "The Engine Braking Control system (EBC) works together with the slipper clutch to avoid and control rear wheel lockup during aggressive downshifting." I purchased it thinking that it didn't have one, so I've been rev match downshifting out of habit. I'll see if I can notice it one way or the other next time I'm out.

Another odd thing is that the control tires they chose for this test happen to be the exact ones the 899 TC is calibrated for. Setting 1 is specifically for the SC2 Supercorsas and for the road they used the Diablo Rosso Corse (settings 2-6 and 8). I wonder if the 899 TC would work as well with anything else on it, but we all know that Ducati seems to not want any other tires on the Panigale for group tests.

Last edited by Evolution; November 23rd, 2013 at 05:24 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 07:36 PM   #18
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Well sounds like it does have a slipper and Ducati need to update their press release and web site about the bike. I wonder if it was a last minute thing to include a slipper and they just didn't bother updating the marketing and web site.

Thats great news for prospective buyers, someone should for sure post a thread about the bike having a slipper if they can 100% confirm it does.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 06:04 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by white_duc89 View Post
The 899 has brembo monoblocks (not the m50's like the 1199 has, but the m4's like the 848 EVO has, still excellent stoppers)
The 899 Panigale doesn't have Brembo monoblocks like the 848 Evo or 675R have, they have regular Brembo calipers, and the slipper clutch is a debatable issue as it is not listed on my dealers specs.
Also the fact that the 899 is a frame less bike makes it less appealing for the track.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 07:51 AM   #20
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The 899 Panigale doesn't have Brembo monoblocks like the 848 Evo or 675R have, they have regular Brembo calipers, and the slipper clutch is a debatable issue as it is not listed on my dealers specs.
Also the fact that the 899 is a frame less bike makes it less appealing for the track.

Monoblocs are one piece calipers. The 899 has monoblocs, trust me, I have one sitting in my garage right now and it's a one piece caliper. Ducati lists them as "2 x 320mm semi-floating discs, radially mounted Brembo Monobloc M4.32 4-piston callipers ABS as standard equipment". There is nothing wrong with M4 monoblocs, that's for sure.

As for the slipper, I'm just telling you what the manual says, I cannot confirm that it has a slipper. Maybe I'll take mine out today and bang it down through the gears to see what happens.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 07:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Evolution View Post
Monoblocs are one piece calipers. The 899 has monoblocs, trust me, I have one sitting in my garage right now and it's a one piece caliper. Ducati lists them as "2 x 320mm semi-floating discs, radially mounted Brembo Monobloc M4.32 4-piston callipers ABS as standard equipment". There is nothing wrong with M4 monoblocs, that's for sure.
Yea, and I don't much care for the M5's anyway, the M4's are totally fine.

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Originally Posted by Evolution View Post
As for the slipper, I'm just telling you what the manual says, I cannot confirm that it has a slipper. Maybe I'll take mine out today and bang it down through the gears to see what happens.
Yea, try it... remember, high RPM's and lots of braking. I won't work if you're just cruising around town and daintily down shift.

My guess is, it does have a slipper. The cost of building a NON-Slipper and installing it in just the 899 seems silly. Plus, the parts catalog doesn't have one.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #22
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Well, I tried some hard 4th gear to 2nd gear downshifts braking into corners today and I couldn't get the rear to hop or step on me. Either it has a slipper or the EBC is so good it doesn't need it. If I rode like that on my CBR, my rear would have been skipping across the ground.

This thread also is comparing apples to oranges. The 675R does not have a full electronics package like the 899 does. No TC, no user programmable power modes with adjustable power delivery or EBC. We'll see what all the soon to be released ride reviews/comparos say but I love the bike. The 675R used to blow the 848 Evo away in head to head comparisons. Not so much with the 899. I think you are going to continue to see everyone (except for traditional "Ducati guys" who hate the swingarm) singing it's praises for a long time to come.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #23
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you're both half-right.

1) The 899 *does* have monoblocs
2) The 899 *does not* have a slipper clutch.

The owner's manual is simply stating that the EBC works with the slipper clutch in general terms; it doesn't specify that the 899 comes with an OEM slipper. It should more accurately say "works with *a* slipper clutch".

anyway, if the bike is 100% street, 899 for sure - it's a beauty. if you plan on hitting the track at all, 675R hands down. take that $3k or so OTD savings and blow it all at the track.

EDIT: also agree re. apples and oranges. 675R, with race ergos, full Ohlins, quickshifter and the slipper is obviously track-oriented. 899 is obviously far more street-oriented than any of Ducati's previous mids - I dont agree with Tye on this point. The ergos, torque curve etc. all point towards a bike almost purpose-built for the street.

Last edited by halcyononon; November 24th, 2013 at 07:10 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 10:41 PM   #24
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EDIT: also agree re. apples and oranges. 675R, with race ergos, full Ohlins, quickshifter and the slipper is obviously track-oriented. 899 is obviously far more street-oriented than any of Ducati's previous mids - I dont agree with Tye on this point. The ergos, torque curve etc. all point towards a bike almost purpose-built for the street.
I agree with that statement, Ducati absolutely didn't want to make the 899 a race bike, hence the displacement. Just simply making it an 899cc machine, they have eliminated it from partaking in any racing of any kind.

The Triumph 675R with all of its bullshit street crap, has far more 'race' development then any recent Ducati. Its part of the reason why I don't have any interest in new Ducati's sport bikes, they've completely lost their race heritage. They have no interest in making race bikes, just selling high-brow street bikes which reviewers can still pan because they're not quite good enough.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 07:05 AM   #25
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I have a 1098s and the wife has a 675.
My bike looks much much better is built much better but I would ride her bike over mine anytime but she hates riding mine so I have to wait until she leaves it home!
We took our bikes the a 1/4 mile track and raced, I won but when she was done I jumped on hers and beat my bikes best time taking it easy on it.
Would I sell mine and buy a 675r ? yes..wait I just looked at my bike so no..
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Old November 25th, 2013, 01:45 PM   #26
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I have a 1098s and the wife has a 675.
My bike looks much much better is built much better but I would ride her bike over mine anytime but she hates riding mine so I have to wait until she leaves it home!
We took our bikes the a 1/4 mile track and raced, I won but when she was done I jumped on hers and beat my bikes best time taking it easy on it.
Would I sell mine and buy a 675r ? yes..wait I just looked at my bike so no..
this is my point. 675R is almost entirely track-directed. Tye has something of a point in saying that many recent Ducati's are sacrificing track prowess in favor of street appeal. The 899 is a step further in this progression imho.

Of course the Ducati looks a million bucks. On the street, you would be hard pressed to find a more attractive bike, and it has torque for days. However, the 675R is a more competent track weapon, and you can get OTD with money to burn on warmers, slicks and all the rest.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 03:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chev55 View Post
I have a 1098s and the wife has a 675.
My bike looks much much better is built much better but I would ride her bike over mine anytime but she hates riding mine so I have to wait until she leaves it home!
We took our bikes the a 1/4 mile track and raced, I won but when she was done I jumped on hers and beat my bikes best time taking it easy on it.
Would I sell mine and buy a 675r ? yes..wait I just looked at my bike so no..
So the 657r beat your 1098s in the 1/4 mile? What were your times?
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Old November 26th, 2013, 05:32 AM   #28
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those RS250s are hard to find. awesome bikes though.
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Old November 26th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #29
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this is my point. 675R is almost entirely track-directed. Tye has something of a point in saying that many recent Ducati's are sacrificing track prowess in favor of street appeal. The 899 is a step further in this progression imho.

Of course the Ducati looks a million bucks. On the street, you would be hard pressed to find a more attractive bike, and it has torque for days. However, the 675R is a more competent track weapon, and you can get OTD with money to burn on warmers, slicks and all the rest.
I agree 99% with chicken_stripper. Where I may differ is that I found the 899 to be very much a track bike once you pop it into Race mode.

I've been looking for a track bike and can empathize with the original sentiment that kicked this thread off. When you are faced with two bikes as good as these, which do you go for? The good news is that it comes down to your personal preference and what you are looking for from a track bike. I have a feeling these two bikes are going to divide the track crowd right down the middle.

I rode both bikes back to back today. (What a great day!!) I ended up going for the Triumph. It felt creamy smooth, and so agile that I almost forgot I was on a bike and just found myself dialed into the road 200 yards ahead. The Duc is more of a physical presence and felt a bit more weighty and statuesque to me. Sports mode or Rain mode and you have a very accessible bike that will appeal to a broader crowd as Tye says. Race mode...I still think you need to be comfortable on a Ducati to appreciate what that has to offer.

End of day the 675r left me with a bigger grin on my face and certain this was the track bike for me right now. 1 or 2 years from now that could all change. Only immediate mod I will be making is to reduce the clutch travel. I prefer a more immediate take.

Thank goodness we live in a world where 2 manufacturers are turning out such amazingly good bikes!
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Old November 26th, 2013, 10:55 PM   #30
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I mean, I helped build a race-winning 675R with all the geometry/chassis kits, electronics package, the whole 9 yards. I also got to develop it with the owner, so I've got LOTS of hours riding it on the track. Yea, its no 749R... but it was a hell of a nice track/race bike.

People who aren't experienced racers, don't quite understand the whole picture, what makes the essence of a track bike. There are so many things from gear box ratio's to where your knee rests on the tank and how high the mounting location of the pegs are in relationship to the seat. These geometry numbers are what makes a race bike a TRUE race bike. Ducati NAILED these numbers with the Desmoquattro/Testastretta powered bikes. So that would be 916 all the way through the 999. But with the Testastretta Evo machines (848/1098/1198) they leaned more towards comfort and street riding with those numbers. The Panigale to me, seems to be the same progression, more and more towards the street riding. Just watch someone ride a Panigale on the street from behind, look at how much more upright they are, how low the knees are and even peg location. The cockpit numbers just don't add up, they don't make any sense in the world of racing.

I had an hour conversation with someone who made the move from the older testastretta chassis of the 749R to the 1098R and it took him almost 2 years to be faster on the 1098R then he was on the 749R and he's a fast racer. He said, it was just not as comfortable to ride the newer bike, it just didn't allow him to control the machine as well as the older chassis.

What does this have to do with the Triumph? Well, after spending hours riding it, I do think Triumph has got some good numbers. Not only with the gearbox ratio's, but also with the seat to peg but also seat to steering stem geometry numbers. They seem to be doing what Ducati did back in the 999 days and it works. Its part of the reason I like the Triumph because on the track it fits like a glove. Mind you, its no Ducati 749R... but its the closest non-Ducati I've ridden to being like the Ducati's I've ridden.

All I can say is, unless you've had the experience riding a real thoroughbred race bike like the 749R, just tooling around on the streets, isn't going to give you enough information for an educated understanding of how the bike will perform at high speeds on the track. Likewise, the Triumph's chassis isn't well sorted stock either, similar issues to the older Ducati's.
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