[fuzion]

Hello all

First of all i want to say that besides some local trackdays at a small 2km track that we have here, i have no bright future as a rider to discover the full potential a superbike has, even tho i am trying to know and train as much as i can on my free time. Therefore maybe i will never understand on the track the differences of +1mm rear height... Reasons for opening this thread are to understand why... I love riding this bike (1098s) and nothing changes that.

I have recently discovered the geometry problems that the 848/1098/1198 series have (trail, swingarm angle, weight ratio...). Everyone says that to get proper numbers you have to 1) buy a 28-30mm offset triple clamp to replace the 36mm stock, and 2) buy a rear height rod that allows higher values than the stock part.

My question is why would ducati design their models like this, and has the racing bikes with different parts. Even the 1098r has 36mm triples? I don't understand, and it makes me wonder what really is good on this bike stock, comparing to japanese or other. Mid-range power? I will leave out design and sound for now, those are the reasons i bought it and of course its best to ride what makes you happy and not what is the "best". But really, why would a serious racer buy a 1098, if it needs so much to begin with. And the S models. I mean wouldn't spending $1000 on proper triples and rod be better than those oem ohlins stuff and lightweight wheels for someone that races? isn't proper geometry more important than low friction forks?

Anyway... It all seems strange to me. And everyone also says that the 1199 fixed all those issues. Why would there be issues in the first place on such a simple thing. And on bikes that cost so much and are so proud of their racing character.

 

[ANORXIC'51]

They designed the production 848/1x98 to be streetbikes for the general motorcycling public first and foremost. The general motorcycling public has absolute no interest in racing, nor taking their $xx,xxx sportbike to the track.

We are in a VERY small minority, and we're pretty freaking lucky to have others with the knowhow to correct the issues that can turn this into a very capable machine along with us in that small percentage.

Why would a serious racer choose an 848/1x98 platform over the better-from-the-factory superbikes? Passion for the brand, willingness to try something different from the masses, and dedication to replicate the characteristics of a bike that won WSBK Championships.

Just my opinion at 6am on a Monday morning....

 

[219R]

^^ +1 The good news is for those who enjoy the "challenge", the 1098/848 platform/motor can be modified into a super fun and fast race/track bike without a whole lot of money and time investment. All the design and methods to improve the geometry and suspension has been well documented on this and other Ducati Forums. A simple search will yield volumes of information for those willing to begin a super fun process. Start at the beginning by getting the OEM suspension set-up properly. Then proceed to the modification phase as your ability allows. It is a fun ride.

 

[fuzion]

yeah i will agree that the journey is the interesting part and not the target (as the target is quite high for common people). definitely the ducati "character" is everywhere then, affecting mainly your pocket

i appreciate the answers guys but still don't see why having available a 1098R at that cost, race ready, championship ready, with silly "street" geometry... meh. (it also has 36mm triple no?)

 

[219R]

yes. All of the 848/1098/1198 OEM models have a 36mm offset triple with a 24.5 rake angle, with the exception of the R model which has a headstock with an eccentric bearing race to be able to rotate 180 degrees to have a 23.5 rake angle, which is part of the geometry change desired to go with the 28mm offset.

 

[1fast750ss]

Hey Fuzion, As ANORXIC'51 explained, he pretty much hit it on the head. Ducati has always developed a production bike for the street, even though it says R on it. It's all about building a street bike that will last for the masses. What you see on an R(for example) is the motor build compared to stock, as that cost is surely the most in any race bike. They also add the little chassis mods that are not bolt on, such as the eccentric in the headstock tube. These are the things that can not be modified in certain platforms of racing, so if built in the bike at production, they're ahead of the game.

Now with regard to chassis components, most rules(except stock) allow changes, so they don't worry about making the changes at the factory. One big reason is cost. They found it's easier to add the shiny bits to the race bikes rather than the factory bikes. One reason is that all racers are different, so naturally, the pars will be different too.

This leads to the main point. It's more cost efficient to build the bikes this way in production because they've been built this way since 1994, so no real changes in production costs. When you are talking about chassis development, now you bring in to the equation: levels of racing. How fast are you? How fast is you buddy, or for that matter, a racer in WERA or a Pro in World SBK? Monumental differences between every one of them. One thing to remember is that the bike is built better than most people can ride them out of the factory if adjusted properly. This is why I say tune to stock bits before you buy the shiny bits.

Aside from racing levels, you have different people riding them. Chaz is different from Davide, correct? Their bikes are completely set up different because of this reason, so a factory simply can not make a one size fits all bike for every.

Now this comes to the point of the shiny bits. Say you are thinking of buying triples. Why do you need them? This is what I ask everyone that wants to buy them, and I sell triples. Have you modified anything on the bike yet? What level do you ride? The list goes on.

When you talk about modifying a chassis, think about what you end game is. Why are you modifying it? What is the bike doing that is telling you, you must change or modify something in particular?

Many questions, and the Ducati Factory has answered every one of them. This is why the bikes are the way they are.

If you want to build your bike, answer the questions I asked first. It will make more sense afterward.

 

[fuzion]

ok you people pretty much sumed it up. i agree that one must fully understand what each setting does and play with stock parts ages before purchasing stuff, i just thought that the 30mm offset would be more 'universal' than the 36mm put on these models. anyway, you pretty much explained it thanks