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Discussion Starter #21
So I see there is a special tool for the stared nut on the jugs...what's the best way to get this off and torque for later without the special tool?
 

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it's a metric twelve point (I think it's a 14mm, but don't quote me on it). any 12 pt wrench or socket will do.

The factory tool for the monster was hobbled together from the cut off end of a boxend 12pt wrench and a1/2" drive extension welded together on a bent piece of 3/8" steel round bar, The welds looked like peanut butter and the coating had big voids and peels right off.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
this is what i found on ebay eric...i must have been to tired last night to even attempt to putting a regular socket on...im sure that will work

 

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Be aware that when you go to set torque on your Head Nuts with that tool the torque values have to be recalculated, as the torque wrench values arenbasedbon it's length and that wrench constitutes a lengthening of the torque wrench.

Torque required X length of original TW divided by the combined length of the TW and new wrench.

44 ft/lbs X 17 in TW divided by 22(17 + 5)

44 X 17
---------
22. Answer = 34 ft/lbs
 

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Discussion Starter #27
yup, thanks for the tip.

OK the cylinders are removed...the horizontal rod has some play in it..the vertical is tight....cylinder walls look good...and the pistons look good. looks like i may have lucked out....splitting the case in the next couple of hours(waiting for another set of hands) pics for now....




 

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Discussion Starter #28
First I would like to say thanks to Eric for giving me the confidence....the engine was MUCH easier to take apart than I had thought....i barely used 6 parts 1X1in containers in my 24 sectioned nuts/bolts box.

Tip for day..as you said, "make sure all the bolts are undone"...after about 30 minutes using 2X4 timbers to try and pry the case open, i took another minute to really look for bolts...low and behold 1 bolt was left. Once it was out, it was a breeze.

So the damage....I still dont know why it happened.....
after some thought i realized the vertical rod shouldnt be "tight" on the shaft and should rotate freely. Once i started playing around with ity, it unseized. Upon removal, i could see the the sleeve had started to grind down but not as much as the horizontal's....the horizontal connecting rod's sleeves had ground down and actually stacked up on each other. One the lower side of the crankshaft was exposed with no sleeve....Not sure what this means(the crank was severely damaged to allow the sleeves to slide upon each other? or did the sleeves spin, grind down and then slide on each other since the clearances opened up).

1.)So....now to gather my game plan..... As long as no one objects to my train of thought on the crankshaft and rods, i think ill send everything to Fox performance(only people i know online that ive found to do the work), get it knife-edged, lightened, and rebalanced as well as clean up the crankshaft surfaces. I believe then ill have to ask them what sleeves i need to order?(or maybe they will sell me some if i send the rods with them as well.)

2.)The rods have some surface damage as well..i assume this needs to be machined back to glass?

3.)The engine will need to be cleaned of all debri...not sure how to do this yet..suggestions?

4.)id like to open up some of the oil passages to improve oil flow....which ones? i need to research this

5.) I have noticed when shifting gears from 4th to 5th it drops between gears and feels like neutral...what should i inspect now that im here?

5.) Anything else i should do while its open?

parts list to order:
1.) head gaskets
2.) jug gasket
3.) head green oring set to slide down head bolts(i assume i need to replace these)
4.) head bolts/nuts?(reusable?)
5.) water pump gasket(since i had a leak)maybe its liquid
6.) liquid gasket maker---i typically use ATV black but id rather but whatever it calls for.
7.) Pulley 4 finger nut(i didnt have the right so i mangled it to get it off)
8.) Rod Sleeves X 2
9.) Belts(they have 9k miles on...should i since im here?)
10.) can i take the heads to a ducati shop and have them do valve clearance with the heads off?...maybe be cheaper than buying a shim kit....?
11.) spark plugs









 

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I'm glad you're enjoying the experience
Sending the crank rods and pistons out for work is a great idea. they can also open up the passages on the crank if they find that it helps, and they will now if the rods are salvageable or if it's a good time to order up a set of pankl ti rods.
The best part to open up is the drainage in the case and polish down the rough casting surface inside the case for better oil return. I polished out the oil return groves in the jug bores and through the jugs as well on the motor I built. Nice polished surfaces with opened up oil returns will help from running the sump dry of hard accel at high rpm and will likely do more to help the lubrication than opening journals.
you can take the case to the machine shop once you are done with the polishing and have them put it is a cleaning tank- then blast out theoil journals with an air nozzle.
The shifting issues can typically be rectified by adjusting the lever inside the left case cover at the slip joint. Just take time when adjusting it on reassembly.
remember- use lots of moly based assenbly lube in assembly, every bearing and between any two components that rub against eachother.
I have used a sleeve made from a two liter soda bottle and a couple zip ties as a ring compressor when I didn't feel like spending the cash for the specific tool of the motor.
 

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I strongly urge you to replace that rod rather than resizing it. The obvious heat it has taken will have embrittled the rod. I have seen rods with similar heat damage fail after resizing. Oil return should not be an issue (although as Eric says helping the return is a good idea) in these engines. I would seriously consider a different oil to the one you were using after the rebuild.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
noted ELTWIN. I will send everything to fox, and see what my options are. I was using mobile one.....but again starvation seems to have been the problem... the little nozzles inside are soooo tiny...no wonder a bit of metal clogged them.

Once i get a chance to talk to fox on monday and get what i need sent out to him, ill be back on to figure out the cleaning.(i have a dip tank at my rents car shop, but last time i remembered, you have to remove all orings, bearings, etc....which if ducati made a "rebuild kit" that came with everything i would remove it all, but I dont want to get into removing all 40 orings, etc. The cases actually look pretty clean. Im going to carefully solvent rinse them in the bath tank and use a aersol cleaning to wash the rest... Then ill get some cheap oil and my autotrigger windex bottle nozzle and semi pressure wash the pieces with oil. oh course ill need to go through the ports with air, qtip, and wire to make sure everything is clear.

Ill update the discussion with fox, then start buying the dremel attachments for polishing the cases.

I still think i need a better solution to high RPM oil starvation.

thanks again guys.
 

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When I was in tech school years ago I was talking with one of my instructors that ran 1/4 and 1/8 mile drag and funny car about engines and oil system mods. From what he told me, and I've heard it other places as well, when you start running higher capacity oil pumps and oversizing journals you can end up with a negative effect from the lubrication system, for one you create more high rpm drag with the pump, but also when you push too much oil by solid bearings, such as rod bearing on your motor, it can actually erode the bearing surfaces almost like how a presure washer can cut into soft surfaces. Now he wasn't a ducati race motor builder, so checking with a machine shop that builds duc motors is a good place to go. As a basic principle, the faster your engine goes, the faster your oil pump pushes oil, but oil drains at the same rate regaurdless of rpm. THe real detriment to oil presure is pulling air into the pump because the oil is not drainign back into the sump fast enough. Air can compress so it creates an immedeate drop in oil presure and capacity, in turn exposing you rengine to metal on metal conatct of moving parts. I have also seen some threads here where someone was running their mains dry and opened up the case (quite a bit) for oil return and also JB welded metal screens into the more opened holes to keep large peices from reaching the sump in a failure. I have seen this done with car engines as well, when they oil returns from the heads were opened screens were installed to keep bits from reaching the sump in a failure minimizing additional damage. I don't think anyone would waste the time with a dye grinder polishing the tops of V8 engine heads and the insides of the engine block unless there was a noted benefit in oil return. on that note, It might be helpfull to run a true oil presure guage on your bike with a warning light that you can set the trigger presure on. The little on off switch with the stock set up is more of a safety than a true measuring device. and how would you even test to be sure the stock sensor is functioning in it's proper range?
Lastly- sometimes the smallest defects can cause catastrophic failure in an otherwise good engine, the guy putting your engine together, the parts delivery guy, or even the manufacturer, could have dropped the rod bearing off the bench and dinged it before putting it in your motor, while it may not have been bad enough to cause and instant failure, it could have been just off enough to wear unevenly and fail earlier than expected. once the bearing spins it shuts of the oil supply from the journal, once the bearing burns out, now the journal has no restriction and causes an overall presure loss to the rest of the engine causing a chain reaction of failure.
I know that was alot to read, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.
 

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Good work! I believe you can check your own Valve clearances from what I've seen you do on your own thus far. It isn't difficult, especially with the Heads off. You will need a set of Feeler Gauges and just follow the Manual. Doubtful you will need to make any adjustments. All the gaskets associated with the Cam cover are reusable. Buy some 3 Bond from Ducati and apply in the required spots. It is also used to seal the side case, I believe.
Also, there are 5 green O Rings used to help seal the Cylinder and metal Cylinder Gasket. To install them over the Head Bolts without damaging them, I cut a finger off a rubber glove and put this over the Head Stud, then Lubed it with Vasoline, then slid the O Ring over and down the Stud. Worked great; just a thought.

New Belts.
Spark plugs should be fine, but what the heck...
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Spudd, im not too worried about the labor as I am buying a shim kit for 150 bucks. ha. a shop may only charge me 50-60 bucks if the heads are off and they can do a shim for me.
 

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Your tech school guys gave you good info eric. Excess pressure will definitely erode bearings and rob power but cannot be created providing the pressure release spring is correct and bypass valve is large enough. With the greater bearing clearances required in drag motors pressures drop if the volume is not increased to compensate for the easier oil flow past the bearings. In my experience engines only dry sump themselves if too much oil is flowed to the top end and cannot return rapidly enough. V8's have an enormous volume available in the rocker covers... something like 4 to 5 litres in total. Also a V8 crank assembly at 7000rpm can carry as much as 3 litres of oil in its windage.... hence the importance of crank scrapers and scavenger trays to direct that windage volume back to the sump as well.

However, I cannot see any way that our bike engines can store more than about half a litre in the cylinder heads (even if they were entirely filled with oil) so I believe dry sumping these engines is an impossibility unless there is already way too little oil in the engine to begin with.

Mobil 1 would not be an oil I would recommend for a Duc engine Quacker. The 0-40 is MUCH too thin! I might use the 15-50 if I had no other options...... if your problem was caused by oil starvation both bearings would have failed similarly at the same rate because both are fed from the same source.
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
my guess is starvation from wheelies...it would explain why the horizontal cylinder cooked, then the vertical started cooking once the horizontal's brass clogged the oil lines

(this was a joke btw)
 

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Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
Spoke with Ben over at Fox Performance.

His suggestion was to send the crank and rods in for him to look it over. In a nutshell,if the crank needs to be serviced it will cost $375 to resurface the areas. This will bring it back to OEM specifications/Tolerances. He will also sell me a set of bearings and ensure the fitment is correct by sending me a ready to put in crank.

As far as balancing, knife-edge, or polish guys, he said if i am not planning on upgrading the components, none of them would be required.

If i planned on upgrading to high compression piston's and Carrillo rods, then I would need to. adding up, that would be around $1000+ which i dont think my riding style accounts for dropping that much into engine work.

so with all that said...ive seen a few used(assumable) low mileage crank/rod assemblies. They claim tolerances have been checked and are within OEM specifications.

I didnt get to ask him what the benefit would be having him provide services over finding a good used set would be...but obviously one would feel more confident that the crank was perfect than a worn used set. Then again maybe its all going to be on how he feels the condition of the rods are. If its like what ELTWIN said, it might be time for new rods..(550+ for carrillo?) yikes

what performance feel am I going to get with a OEM piston and Carriollo lightweight steel rods(134 grams less a rod)? quicker acceleration?

opinions?
 

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the after market rodsare built with two benefits in mind, strenght and weight. IF the rod is stronger, it will handle faster accell and higher combustion presures that tuning, porting and just aggresive riding tend to create. The lmas reduction increases the power used to turn the back wheel that is normally being used to accellerate the rods from 0-200mph within about 2" of distance inside the engine. It may not seem like much but if you figure out the newtons of force required to move that mass to that speed in that amount of time, then multiply that by your rpm, you'l find out just how much power gets used to move your engine rather than your bike. It's the same concept as a lightened flywheel, but the mass reduction in the rods won't affect your idle or smoothness off the line like the flywheel does, tehcnically reducing the mas travelining up and down should smooth out the stroke if you think about it with physics- object in motion tends to stay in motion in a straight line at a constant speed unleess acted on by another force- the rods and pistons are going one direction fast and then have to go backthe other direction just as fast- that's alot of "another force" such as your engine power being used to handle this task.

Honestly, if it were my bike, and the expense is considered from the point of veiw of someone on a budget but loves his bike, here's where I'd spend the money
Rods- ti or light steel, but definitely worth the money for strength
extrude hone the heads- I'd strip them, send them out, and reassemble them myself, it doesnt require resizing valves or matching the intake- check with the shop to see if the seats will need to be recut or not depending on their process
1098r main bearings- I'd do some research, but I've read a few times that these are better
clean and reuse stock pistons- the high performance ones typically come with 1 compression ring and do not add strength and longevity, if the walls and rings are clean reuse the rings
polish and knife edge crank- reduces mass and resistance and will match up nicely with a set of upgraded rods
lightened flywheel- you're using it as a track bike so this makes sense- if it were a commuter i'd stick with stock
clean and polish case, oil return on jugs, open the return galleys a little
clean the valves and replace the stem seals
new belts
and just because I'm a safety nut- get the speedy moto water pump cover just in case
Put it all together and drive it like you stole it
 

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Im going to carefully solvent rinse them in the bath tank and use a aersol cleaning to wash the rest


Careful what solvent you use to do this with it might not do the o-rings and seals left in the cases any favors.
 

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use an orange oil based degreaser , and a bathmat in the tub- keep you from scratching up the tub and catching hell from the wife, and it wont damage the seals.
 
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