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Discussion Starter #41 (Edited)
So ive been debating my options and taking in some input from various realms...ive come up with the below questions that are stumping me and my the two options that I have narrowed down to based on me being on a budget and me wanting to ensure reliability.

opinions?

Questions:
1.) This is a base model 1098. I am being told the main bearings/holders are junk and should be upgraded. Not necessarily to the ceramic but the newer ducati bearings. However, when i look at the PN from ducati microfilm for 1098, 1098r, 1198, 1198r, the main bearings and holders all have the same number....:confused:
2.) If i decide i need to replace the main bearings inwhich i will have to heat up the case to do so, then should i replace the other output bearings?
3.) im debating whether or not i should do the preload measurement and assy of the cases with crank. Currently I am being quoted 2 hours for assembly +40 in shims and I will get back the case with crankshaft ready for me to install the cover components and go.

CRANKSHAFT/CON ROD OPTION
Option 1: The "reliable stocker"
1.) Gotham Used Crankshaft/Conrods: $345 parts
2.) ConRod ARP Bolts: $140parts
3.) Race Tolerance spec'ed con rod bearings: $120-parts $130-labor
4.) Component Balance: $149-200​
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parts-$605 Labor: $330​

Option 2: Upgraded Aftermarket ConRod"
(not alot of good support on this as everyone says i need to include new pistons..but its not in my budget. However, if you take new Conrods @ 550 minus the price for things i would have used for Stock Conrods(ARP bolts and i believe the labor for race specing they wont be neede, then the price difference is only $371 for an upgraded performance benefit that results in lighter rotating mass(quicking acceleration and power to the rear wheel), stronger and reliable con rods.)
1.) Gotham Used Crankshaft/Conrods: $300 parts
2.) Race Tolerance spec'ed con rod bearings: $120-parts
3.) Carrillo Con-Rods: $550 (will it have the Guidon Pin and bushings? I assume it wont come with Rod Bearings.)
4.) Crank Lightening and Balance: $399​
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parts-$907 Labor: $399​

Optional Labor to be decided:
1.) Upgrade Main Bearings and Races:​
a.) Parts: $472 (both bearings and races)
b.) Shims: $40 for 2
c.) Labor at shop: 2 hours (~200)
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Parts-$512 Labor: $200​
2.) Replace other bearings?​


Mandatory Parts:
0.) Head Gasket kit: $312 (no one has yet to tell me what this comes with.....)
1.) Top Head Gasket: $116.39 X 2= $233
2.) Cylinder/Crankcase Gasket: Reusable
3.) Con Rod Top Guidon pin Bushing: Should be resuable after I mic it.
4.) Head Bolts: should be useable but only 10 a bolt.
5.) Green o-rings: should be useable but only 3each
6.) DucBond Sealant: ~$25
7.) Belts: $130
8.) Shims: ~$80
9.) Elastic Stop Ring nut: $9 (timing gear nut i mangled)
10.) Valve Cover Gasket: Resuseable
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Parts: $417 or head gasket kit $500
 

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option 2!!!
replace the mains yourself
do not re- use wrist pin bearings even if you stay option 1, they don't cost much especially compared to the time and money to tear down the motor.
Valve cover gaskets are reusable
 

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Did you crashed the bike or even laid it down while running?
I've seen many engines with similar rod damage issues due to oil starvation while on its side, you wont notice it right away but will score the rod bearing a bit and will
fail within a 1000 miles @ the most......
Have you checked the oil pump to see if it turns over smooth or opened it to see if it has scored or metal residue?
I've almost never seen both ros shells damaged @ the same (both failing but only one really bad like yours) and I think it,s due to the failing ones are farther away in the oil circuit.......
 

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Discussion Starter #44
devimau:
1.) interesting you mention that. It was on its side and my brother's body for maybe 30-50seconds till i picked it up off him. Bike was in neutral with engine on. id say within 1000 miles ago.
2.) No i havent checked the oil pump...what is procedure to do so and I will report tonight.
3.) The vertical shells were not necessary damaged....when i was taking it all apart, the shells were frozen on the crankshaft which i assume occurred after the horizontal shells ground down, and the moments after when my oil light came on as I was pulling off the highway ramp).
 

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good call!
The oil pump is easy to inspect- turn the gear by hand and see how smooth it feels first, then its just a few bolts to take it apart and you can see if the gears or case are abnormally worn. Again, I though you'd have already taken that little bit apart on your own. but you know what Samual L. Jackson says about Assumption- it makes and ass out of you and Umption.
Once one bearing shell comes apart- the oil is no longer restricted and the presure will drop casuing subsequent failures to any other component relying on the presure.its like getting a big hole on the side of a garden hose- there is little presure left at the nozzle.By shutting it off quickly you likey saved damage from the rest of the engine.
 

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1-very good, now you know why your engine failed
2-rotate the gear, it should turn over very smooth, also you can open it (brake the bolts loose and open it, it's a 2 piece part)....once you open it check the gear that pushes the oil out doesnt have any scoring and the body where the gear rotates is free of damage...I'll brake one open tomorrow when I get to the shop and post it for you.....
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
eric/Devimau: I havent performed anything than breaking it all apart. Once I have the service/parts on order for the crank, i was planning to dig into the cleanup. Ill crack it open tonight and see whats going on. I also still have the clutch shifting issue to look at, oil passage blockage, cylinder wall check, piston and ring check. looks like 30 bucks for a used on on ebay.

Looks like Option 2 is going to be the way to go. BTW, im only assuming the upgraded lightweight Carrillo rods weight 134grams less X 2 plus a "linear" equal weight reduction of the crankshaft of 134X2 =536grams or 1.18168lbs off the rotating assembly. and I assume shaving 1.18lbs off the assembly will result in a dramatic increase in performance to the "touch". (also may need to reduce flywheel weight but dont want to get into that yet) If its not going to do shit, then ill go option 1! ha

The only isse to resolved is Replacing the Main Bearings(and/or other bearings) and Who to do the Labor.....
i am "assuming" the preload shim measurement is probably similar to all engines of make...so Ive decided since this is a VERY critical part of a engines performance, i dont want to experiment on my first go around on this ducati and end up trashing the new rods and parts. I have a few contacts for mechanics who work on the local track bikes that I will see if they can measure the correct shim thickness, I will order the shims online, then have them put the cases back together and do their "knowledgeable" checks to ensure its rotating properly and torqued correctly. Then ill just order the head gasket kit and starts reassembling everything. There has GOT to be some "tricks of the trade" to make this ducati so expense to work on. same reason my rents shop charges extra for Mazda engine work.
 

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flywheels are about $120 ish moto wheels and gotham has them
The real trick to the preload is understanding the concept and using a dial indicator and micrometer.
Remember that you will likely need to adjust your idle throttle opening due to the reduced mass, and will likely need a mapping adjustment to realize the full potential of the mass reduction in your power band.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
well, i wont be getting a microtech...i have the full system termi with DP ECU and thats about as far as I will go...so i better get some opinions from the guys who will balance on option 2 without remapping...
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
do you guys really think upgrading the rods and lightening the crank will result in an actual performance gain i can feel? Im not really racing this...and im not reaching to shave off that 10th of a second in a laptime...

upgrading to a full termi system was a huge noticeable change...the bike was a monster afterwards. but it still had a good compromise between smoothness and throttle response.
 

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I think you'll feel a change in the responsiveness of the engine and the smoothness of the power application. Much like the truck I told you about- The difference wasn't that I could shave big time off in a drag race because of the gain in raw power, but that I could apply the power I had more effectively and ended up with a more reliable motor. Think of it in the terms of all of the riding and racing instruction you've ever heard- riding faster and safer is not about how much power you can crank out at the back wheel, it is all in how accurately and smoothly you can use what you have. Increasing the internal strength, lightening mass, and smoothing our your power application won't be like running a NOS bottle, but it will give you a more predictable and smoother way to apply the power you have more effectively.

D- your turn to chime in
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Oil pump turned very freely...almost seemed too loose..ill dig into that later.

i still follow the old and new main bearing design...i keep reading the old has 6 and the new has 7...but mine has many more than that.







 

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this is the oil pump, open it up by removing the 5 mm allen bolts and if you see any scratches on the body like in this pictures..... is garbage.....throw it away and get a new one....
 

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that's rough... the oil pump I pulled out of a monster with 77k miles on it was in way better shape than that. they are such small pumps, are there options for larger output available for engines with looser tollerences?
 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
Just an update:
Decided to go back stock and spend the money I would have on Carrillo rods to have a shop put new main bearings in, calculate shims, and button up the case halves. Sent the newly acquired lowmileage crank and rods to shop for new con rod bearings to be installed and assy balanced.

Next on the to-do list. Need some opinions
1.) Determine the correct preload for shim ordering. Go by the book or....? what do you guys think?
2.) Start cleaning the crap out of the parts I have including the case halves and oil ports. I was thinking about doing a homemade soda blast...but i think since the main contaminate is brass flakes, some kinda orange spray liquid and pipe cleaners will be safest. Then i imagine ill need to use a engine assembly grease on the bearings and other rotating parts.
3.) Determine why I have a false neutral between 4th and 5th.
4.) Get the main bearings and holders on order.
5.) Can i check valve clearance with the heads on my workbench?
6.) Order the tools and parts required for rebuild.
 

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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
got the oil pump apart....given that there are no o-rings, gaskets or medium between the working metal parts, i dont see how there couldnt be signs of wear unless you are suggesting containment are being wedged between the teeth ends and the main body and then being pushed around the body causing the scratches...







 

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Your oil pump shows signs of the debris passing through it, but may survive. Get an expert opinion on this with the parts in your hand.
Just wanted to clarify something that is not perfectly clear on some of these posts. That is - that the main bearings are those which support the rotating crankshaft. The ball races pictured above. The bearings which have failed are the plain bearings of the conrod - often referred to as 'big-end' or conrod bearings. Conrod being short for connecting rod, and big-end of course referring to the bigger end of the rod. Just for those who weren't sure..
I am curious about the reports which have popped up from time-to-time about the main bearings failing, and the possibility that there is a superior item available from another model - eg. 1098R.
I see from the pictures that the mains have a nylon cage. Ducatis have run these angular-contact ball races since the first twins, and the fibre-cage model was always considered a superior item to the nylon cage. Particularly for higher rev and higher-temp use.
Leads me to two questions for those who have done full engine rebuilds on these: 1. Does the R have fibre-caged main bearings?
2. Is there a fibre-caged replacement available? (And is it very dear?).
I remember the fibre-caged replacements for the old bevel engines were much dearer than nylon-caged alternatives. At that time the fibre type were only available from RHP of the UK.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
pat: you guys are the experts!!! no ducati dealership in oklahoma....

from the research i have done with the help of Luke off another board and Ben Fox below, also confirmed by DucShop:

fox suggested the 05 999r bearings. 999r main bearings share the same PN's as the newer 08 1098r and 1198r bearings (so it's clear duc went back to their proven design), but careful the 999 sleeves are different pn's.

So buying any 1098, 1098s 1098r 1198 1198 via microfiche shows the new updated part number


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updated bearings:
75191.3380(both 999r&1098r&1198r)+bush(710.1.113.1A per 05'999r OR 710.1.125.1A per 08'1098r & '10 1198r)
and 702.4020 1a (per999&1098&1198r)+bush(710.1.114.1A per999, 710.1.126.1A per 1098r&1198r)
 
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