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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I ran across a set of 1098R cams on Bellissimoto and wondered a couple things:
1st, wasn't the 98R actually an 1198cc powerplant? that making the cam profile a bit much for a 10? and 2nd, are they worth the $2500. My 15K is coming up and i figured, hell the top end is going to be open anyway,, so that may save a bit in installation, but how much hp would this bring me? Anyone have any EXP here?
 

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I'm pretty sure this has been asked about in the past and the R cams bon't fit the 1098.
Also I don't think the cams are available from Ducati anymore so they would need to be in stock at Bellissimoto. Maybe ask them.
 

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I have a experience here, 1098r cams are not worth it. I understand that you might want to do something for more power since I believe your motor will be open anyway however 1098r cams first off won't fit on your machine if you have a 1098 second there is really no benefit unless you are completely building the motor, and even then many people don't do it. Get the motor blueprinted if you would like to get motor work..... if your not racing the bike I am not sure what the point is but long story short they won't fit or do you any good.
Bellissimoto has none of those parts available and need to be ordered but good luck getting them.....
 

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Few pieces of data to add to this.

The 1098/848 cam's are the same and they really suck. Not much lift and very short duration on the intake openers. They are clearly designed for lower RPM running and even when you time the living crap out of them, they still only produce power up to roughly 10k RPM. So to mess around with the stock cam's in my view, is pointless.

The 1198/848 evo cam's are MUCH better. They have more lift and more duration. They're still of the shorter duration variety, as these motors aren't designed to be race motors, so they keep the duration short and focus more on bottom end grunt instead of making them a screamer, which also helps reliability.

The 1198R cam is more similar to the older 998R/999R cam's of older motors. It has a much longer duration and about the same lift as the 1198/848 evo cam. The longer duration is what allows you to run higher RPM's and thus help gain more power. However, the cost is higher rocker wear, which can be a costly thing in of itself. The Panigale uses cams that are similar to R cam's stock and has DLC coated rockers to help avoid these issues. Of course the gains you'd get are all at higher RPM's, so you'd need to buy an aftermarket ECU, raise the RPM range and time the motor to deliver power up there.

Yes, the 1198R cam's fit the 1098/848, they just require some grinding because the valve location is slightly different. Its not a wise idea to use them in a 1098 either, because they don't tap the rocker square, so it will literally burn through rockers like water.

Unless you're willing to put in the effort to build the motor properly to utilize those R cam's, its not worth it in my view. For the street, 100% not worth it at all. For a race bike, I'd rather have an 1198 anyway because those cam's aren't bad and that extra 100cc's helps as well! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Few pieces of data to add to this.

The 1098/848 cam's are the same and they really suck. Not much lift and very short duration on the intake openers. They are clearly designed for lower RPM running and even when you time the living crap out of them, they still only produce power up to roughly 10k RPM. So to mess around with the stock cam's in my view, is pointless.

The 1198/848 evo cam's are MUCH better. They have more lift and more duration. They're still of the shorter duration variety, as these motors aren't designed to be race motors, so they keep the duration short and focus more on bottom end grunt instead of making them a screamer, which also helps reliability.

The 1198R cam is more similar to the older 998R/999R cam's of older motors. It has a much longer duration and about the same lift as the 1198/848 evo cam. The longer duration is what allows you to run higher RPM's and thus help gain more power. However, the cost is higher rocker wear, which can be a costly thing in of itself. The Panigale uses cams that are similar to R cam's stock and has DLC coated rockers to help avoid these issues. Of course the gains you'd get are all at higher RPM's, so you'd need to buy an aftermarket ECU, raise the RPM range and time the motor to deliver power up there.

Yes, the 1198R cam's fit the 1098/848, they just require some grinding because the valve location is slightly different. Its not a wise idea to use them in a 1098 either, because they don't tap the rocker square, so it will literally burn through rockers like water.

Unless you're willing to put in the effort to build the motor properly to utilize those R cam's, its not worth it in my view. For the street, 100% not worth it at all. For a race bike, I'd rather have an 1198 anyway because those cam's aren't bad and that extra 100cc's helps as well! :)
Wow. alright. and when you say race ECU you mean somethin other than the termi 70 full system ect, correct? Here all this time i thought the entire point of the Desmo drive was to allow for extremely aggressive cam profiles.. Or are the stock cams considered aggressive by twin cylinder engine standards across the board...
 

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Wow. alright. and when you say race ECU you mean somethin other than the termi 70 full system ect, correct? Here all this time i thought the entire point of the Desmo drive was to allow for extremely aggressive cam profiles.. Or are the stock cams considered aggressive by twin cylinder engine standards across the board...
To me a race ECU is an integrated/programmable system with auto tuning capabilities. So Nemesis/Microtech ECU with lambda sensors and a few extra do-dad's for making it all work. Without the auto tune system, you'll never get your bike to work right sadly. Dyno's are only as good as the guy who runs them and only get you part way there, full/real programmable ECU's get you so much more power out of your bike its not even funny. Its all just fueling, its all just efficiency.

Yes, the desmo is all about running high lift profiles. Sadly, Ducati never really used those profiles on anything else but the SPS/R/RS bikes.

The first real cam's were the 431's and followed up by the G cam's. They were of course for the early desmoquattro's and the profile was stunning, they are true works of art. They don't destroy rockers like the EE's or 00's of the 748RS and they produce excellent power. A lot of people who work on desmoquattro's love those cam's.

The EE and 00's of the 748RS were amazing cam's as well, but they literally chewed through rockers due to a very aggressive shelf on the opening of the exhaust valves I believe. The "shelf" and "stepped" opening lobes eventually led way to the 999F cam's of the later generation 999 race bikes from WSBK. Those cam's had such high lift and long duration, they physically didn't fit in the stock 999 heads. Ducati had special heads made for the 999RS/F series just to run those cam's.

The whole reason why the 999 was discontinued had to do with Ducati's superbike results and them unable to afford the high-revving twins of that generation. So they helped get the rules changed so big booming twins were aloud and the 1098 is the little cousin to the 1198RS/F series they ran in WSBK. Its a totally different type of motor then that of the 999RS/F series, much more laid back, much less aggressive, more for smoothness and torque, rather then top end power. They were able to make a much more reliable motor and raise the power output substantially with a bigger bore.

Now the Panigale is the first bike since the 999 to focus on higher RPM running and they've done a great job with the motor design, its back to where Ducati use to be with the 999 in my view. The testastretta evo and evo2 (which were the 1098/1198/848 series) was a minor update on an aging motor. The superquadrata is really the next evolution of motor and it should have replaced the 999 all those years ago.

Take that history books! LOL :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
hahaha no shit. Here all this time i never knew the 999 was that amazing of an engine. I guess they were so ugly i never gave it the time of day lol. Wasn't maintainance on them hell though? and is the 1098R actually an 1198cc?
 

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hahaha no shit. Here all this time i never knew the 999 was that amazing of an engine. I guess they were so ugly i never gave it the time of day lol. Wasn't maintainance on them hell though? and is the 1098R actually an 1198cc?
The base motors 749/999 weren't anything to write home about, same deal as the 1098/848 honestly. The 749R/999R motors were pretty good, the 749R being only slightly better because its closer to the actual race motor, where the 999R is nowhere near close to the actual race motor.

Back in those days, you could by a race kit from Ducati and convert the 749R into a 749RS for not too much money. The 749RS put out 143rwhp @ 13,500 RPM. Yes, a thirteen thousand, five hundred RPM revving twin! With an 848 kit installed, you can get 147rwhp out of it. Pretty amazing lil motor, for sure my favorite motor.

When Ducati announced the 1098, they hadn't yet confirmed the superbike rules yet. They realized that 100cc's difference wasn't going to be enough and with some of the other companies involved; KTM and Buell, the all pushed for a 1200cc limit. Once that caught on, it was all down hill from there, they made a homologation special called the 1098R/1198R and went to town. All the "R's" and race models were 1198cc's.

The 1198R is actually a pretty good motor, its the closest motor to the actual race motor you can buy. It is a totally different motor then the 1198 however, even down to the crank cases. The 1198RS race motor has different cam's (which you can get if you look hard enough) different piston and crank. But honestly, thats about the only changes. So if you have a lot of money and good industry connections, its not very difficult to dig up a 1198RS motor or the parts to build said motor and build your own. I've seen the parts on ebay, though expensive, they are available.

The 1198RS in NON WSBK/BSB form, produces 220rwhp @ 12,000 RPM. However because of the restrictors put on them since day one, they've been limited to 197rwhp or there about. But they have about 110 foot lb of torque, which is why they work so well, but can't get down the straight without getting overtaken, just not enough power.

My favorite motors today are the 749R and 748R. Although the 748R motor is a bitch to work on and very unreliable compared to the 749R, the power band is flawless and with the tame RS cam's and some race fuel, its one hell of a nice motor. The 749R motor is way more aggressive and when rated at 12,000 RPM (which is what I did) sounds amazing.

http://madducracing.com/movies/749rpass.aif
 

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What's the difference between the R and RS engines you talk about?
On the 1198, basically the heads are the same, the dimensions of the motor need to stay the same as well, so that means the cases are pretty much the same, even though they're different on track. Ducati does have modified cases they use on the RS/F series.

Rod, crank, piston, cam's, rockers, bearings. But they need to retain the same lift on the cam's, so that limits the power they can produce as well. I'm pretty sure they also use different valves, seats and guides. The heads are obviously ported as well.

Basically, the 1198R is pretty close to the 1198RS. You can very easily turn an 1198R into an RS without needing the fancy cases. There have been reports of getting 200+ RWHP out of an 1198R with just bolt-on's and some timing changes. Thus proving, those RS cam's are good for another 15 - 20hp when you raise the RPM limit.

The 999R vs 999RS, now thats a totally different thing. Even the RS vs F series machines were different in the final two years. The 999F06/F07 doesn't share a single component with its street bike version. Yes, the bore and stroke are the same and some of the design is similar, but you can't turn a 999R into a 999RS.
 

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143 @13,500 and [email protected] 12k out of the 749 and 1198r?? Jesus!!! shit i knew i shoulda spent about 6 more thousand lol.
Well, heh those numbers aren't what ya get from just throwing cam's in a motor!!! Requires a considerable more work and money then that. On the 1198R ya need an ECU, the big air box/runners, the big exhaust, some porting work on the heads and lots of messing with cam timing and profiles. The stock motor with just the R intakes + kit exhaust and everything else above, will produce 200rhwp @ 12,000 RPM if you build it right. To get 220rwhp requires a lot more work. ;)
 

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Well, heh those numbers aren't what ya get from just throwing cam's in a motor!!! Requires a considerable more work and money then that. On the 1198R ya need an ECU, the big air box/runners, the big exhaust, some porting work on the heads and lots of messing with cam timing and profiles. The stock motor with just the R intakes + kit exhaust and everything else above, will produce 200rhwp @ 12,000 RPM if you build it right. To get 220rwhp requires a lot more work. ;)
tye1138, cam wise what is the best thing to do if the motor is a base 1098?
 

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tye1138, cam wise what is the best thing to do if the motor is a base 1098?
Sadly, the 1198 cam's have the same problem as the 1198R, they don't fit the 1098/848 heads without major modifications. :(

However... this is a big however, the 848 Evo cam's might fit the 1098! That I haven't tried or looked into!
 
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