Ducati.org forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
One of the queries I had when I met the factory mechanics at Kyalami was regarding traction control on the 1098. From what they said, the software for electronic traction control is already onboard all the bikes and will be activated, at the owner,s discretion, once the development is complete. This will be done using the new DDS service diagnostic tool by the dealer. The DDS is required by all dealers to cope with the new systems on the ST3, S4RS, 1098 etc. Robin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
rapidrobin said:
One of the queries I had when I met the factory mechanics at Kyalami was regarding traction control on the 1098. From what they said, the software for electronic traction control is already onboard all the bikes and will be activated, at the owner,s discretion, once the development is complete. This will be done using the new DDS service diagnostic tool by the dealer. The DDS is required by all dealers to cope with the new systems on the ST3, S4RS, 1098 etc. Robin
This intrigues me, but my doubt with this statement is that:

Whilst the system may be already in situ and just requires "activating", it contradicts all the previous information which stated it would be a software download to upgrade the ECU, to allow TC to work.

Apart from whichever method is used to enable traction control, I also have the following niggles. If traction control works by sensing a difference in road speed and that of the rear wheel itself, how could wheelspin be detected solely from the existing rear wheel hall effect speedometer sensor mounted on the bike?

Surely you need two data inputs for comparison? If so, that would mean traction control would require an additional wiring harness, add-ons, etc as opposed to just a change in the software, as has been suggested so far, whether that means "activating" it or downloading it into the bike.

What do you guys think of this new slant on the whole traction control implementation issue?

One last thing...presumably if traction control is implemented on bikes that have already left the factory (ie any that were sold prior to it becoming available) does the factory not have to issue an ADDENDUM to the owner's manual or at the very least a TC user guide in it's own right to those people (either in paper or electronic format). I assume new bikes leaving Bologna with it already in place will have an updated owners manual, so this won't be relevant.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
I'm wondering if the DTC will be operator controllable ... in other words, can it be turned on and off by the rider when he wants to?

Also, wonder if they need to add any wheel speed sensing hardware to the bike ... there has to be a way to sense rear wheel slippage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
All intriguing questions and I wonder the same things. However it works I imagine they would make it so the rider could flip on and off... we all definitely have a little research to do now! Looking forward to the answer because every little thing that I find out about this bike excites me more and more!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Rod said:
Surely you need two data inputs for comparison?
Not necessarily. I read an article a few months back (can't remember which magazine) about the AMA Suzuki team's traction control. It does not use speed sensors or require an additional harness at all. Instead it simply detects and limits RPM spikes. I have no information on Ducati's system, but if they used something similar it would be just a software update.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Traction control in it's most simple form can work off one rear wheel sensor and a speed indicator at the sprocket, gearbox or one additional front wheel sensor. It's quite a simple program to design. The program simply measures the front and rear wheel speed and determines if the difference is or is NOT within tolerences. If outside tolerences then power is cut to one of the cylinders just a fraction of a second. This is how the current traction control systems work. The only problem with this simple design is that it cannot 'learn' or accommodate for different front and rear wheel tire sizes and gearing changes. This is probably what is taking some time for Ducati to 'test'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
duc1098 said:
Traction control in it's most simple form can work off one rear wheel sensor and a speed indicator at the sprocket, gearbox or one additional front wheel sensor. It's quite a simple program to design. The program simply measures the front and rear wheel speed and determines if the difference is or is NOT within tolerences.
That might work great on a vehicle that doesn't do wheelies. :stickpoke :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
traction control

There is a large toggle switch on the left hand control of all 1098,s. The toggle switch allows the rider to select several types of display and access features such as the DDA system, lap timer etc. There is a page of the display for DTC which can be switched on or off. Obviously this will only function once the download has been carried out. I believe it will be possible to select different levels of traction control depending on conditions and personal preferences. One of my mates sent me an article yesterday from www.motorcycledaily.com which seems to confirm this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
The Ducati owners manual states:

Here's a line directly out of the owners manual for the 1098/1098S. This is under fault codes on page 33:

"DTC 8.0 Traction control unit error (the error can only occur if the bike has been
fitted with the traction control kit available from Ducati performance)"

Apparently it will be available on all 1098's as an EPROM flash by the dealer when Ducati's satisfied that it's working correctly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Sure it can!

That might work great on a vehicle that doesn't do wheelies. :stickpoke :D
Although, I will be surprised if Ducati makes this part of it's DTC program but any good software designer will take into account these sort of issues. For example, the front wheel skimming along the ground while under power. These can be part of the calculation for tolerances. Also you can have different tolerances based on conditions (rain, air temp, etc.) The last thing you can do is install a gyroscope to determine the position of the bike, i.e. leaned over, doing a wheelie, etc.

As far as sensors go, I know the 999 always had a sensor on the rear brake and brake rotor. I never knew what it was used for but would have worked perfectly for traction control. It's a small black cable that attaches to a sensor and I believe would create a small magnetic field between the bolts that hold on the rear rotor and this sensor. This is how you measure the rear wheel speed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
MCN 'sorta' Confirms Ducati traction control

I just read this in MCN, seems to confirm what most of us have been guessing...I would love to upload the screen print but the size limit is too small. Basically says they are working with Magnetti Marelli on the system which is the same as used on the MotoGp bikes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
duc1098 said:
Although, I will be surprised if Ducati makes this part of it's DTC program but any good software designer will take into account these sort of issues. For example, the front wheel skimming along the ground while under power. These can be part of the calculation for tolerances. Also you can have different tolerances based on conditions (rain, air temp, etc.) The last thing you can do is install a gyroscope to determine the position of the bike, i.e. leaned over, doing a wheelie, etc.

As far as sensors go, I know the 999 always had a sensor on the rear brake and brake rotor. I never knew what it was used for but would have worked perfectly for traction control. It's a small black cable that attaches to a sensor and I believe would create a small magnetic field between the bolts that hold on the rear rotor and this sensor. This is how you measure the rear wheel speed.
Yes it's the same one used on all Ducatis and is known as a "hall effect" sensor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
duc1098 said:
Although, I will be surprised if Ducati makes this part of it's DTC program but any good software designer will take into account these sort of issues. For example, the front wheel skimming along the ground while under power. These can be part of the calculation for tolerances. Also you can have different tolerances based on conditions (rain, air temp, etc.) The last thing you can do is install a gyroscope to determine the position of the bike, i.e. leaned over, doing a wheelie, etc.

As far as sensors go, I know the 999 always had a sensor on the rear brake and brake rotor. I never knew what it was used for but would have worked perfectly for traction control. It's a small black cable that attaches to a sensor and I believe would create a small magnetic field between the bolts that hold on the rear rotor and this sensor. This is how you measure the rear wheel speed.
I hear ya, and yes anything is possible with enough money and today's technology. That in mind, I bet it will not be super complicated since it would add too much cost to the bike.

So that brings up another question. If the early release bikes are updated later, is it a free upgrade from the dealers since I'm assuming Ducati intended the DTC system to be part of this bike from the start? Hummm ....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
I think there will be a kit from Ducati Performence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
Traction Control

Hadn't realized that the 1098 already had a rear wheel speed sensor. ABS, whether on bikes or cars, works by sensing sudden accelerations (decelerations) of the wheel and interrupting hydraulic pressure. Wonder if traction control could be implemented by sensing wheel acceleration above a certain threshhold and interrupting ignition. This would circumvent annoying little problems with comparing front wheel speed to rear such as the fairly rapid hange of rear rolling diameter due to tire wear and, of course, the wheelie problem. I disagree with the previously posted statments that traction control would be useless in the dry at horsepower levels below that of motoGP bikes; I don't have any doubt that there's enough torque on tap with the 1098 to slide the rear tire with unwise application of throttle exiting a turn. And of course, the real world can provide less than ideal traction even in dry conditions.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top