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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think some of the guys here were around back in the days of Department of Suspension, who I understand was a very polarizing personality that kind of wound up being shunned by the Duc community for his behavior. But as for his 749/999 suspension setup recommendations at the link here -- I haven't found much as to success or failure of this particular setup.

Anyone have any inputs on his recommendations for Stage 4, i.e. the best setup for our bikes? Anyone have experience with their setup and the success they've had on the track that they would be willing to share?

section8superbike :749/999 Suspension:
 

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Its kind of old data unfortunately, I don't think it works very well either. Jason went off to do his own thing after section 8 and even though he screwed many people and went into hiding, his data is very good. He tested with some top professional riders in the Canadian superbike series.

These are the recommended base numbers:

Trail 101.2mm

Swingarm angle 11deg

Steering head angle 23 deg

Triple Clamp offset 30mm

Front ride height 715mm

Rear ride height 255mm

Swingarm length 505-510mm

Wheelbase 1445-1455mm

Weight distribution 52f/48r

I'm not sure if the 749S has the rake adjuster in the steering tube. If it does, you can buy the 749R double eccentric steering tube from ebay and you won't need to buy 30mm offset triple clamps. This setup also requires a linear rate rear link. You'd probably have to find one on ebay from the 749R as well. However, you'd need to get the shock shortened and use a shorter ride height adjuster.

I use to run a very similar setup on my 749R and it worked well enough for me to win races.
 

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Hmmm. This sounds interesting.

I was going to ask if there are any Duc guys near CT who would be able to set my bike up for me.
Need to read all of this stuff first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Its kind of old data unfortunately, I don't think it works very well either. Jason went off to do his own thing after section 8 and even though he screwed many people and went into hiding, his data is very good. He tested with some top professional riders in the Canadian superbike series.

These are the recommended base numbers:

Trail 101.2mm

Swingarm angle 11deg

Steering head angle 23 deg

Triple Clamp offset 30mm

Front ride height 715mm

Rear ride height 255mm

Swingarm length 505-510mm

Wheelbase 1445-1455mm

Weight distribution 52f/48r

I'm not sure if the 749S has the rake adjuster in the steering tube. If it does, you can buy the 749R double eccentric steering tube from ebay and you won't need to buy 30mm offset triple clamps. This setup also requires a linear rate rear link. You'd probably have to find one on ebay from the 749R as well. However, you'd need to get the shock shortened and use a shorter ride height adjuster.

I use to run a very similar setup on my 749R and it worked well enough for me to win races.
So these are his numbers if you follow the setup in my original link? He doesn't list the actual measurements that result from his setup. Or these were you numbers you used to run that was very similar to his recommendation?

I've been watching eBay for a couple months now for the double eccentric to drop in my 749s, but they are scarce. I may contact Ducati Omaha just to get a pricing for all the new parts i would need to just replace the steering tube and just run the stock triples. I bought your old shock and linkage/ride height rod, remember?:yo:
 

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The stock link doesn't work well at all. You'll get too much squat and it will change the chassis geometry too much under heavy throttle application. The linear link is easy to get, Dan Kyle or The Duc Shop can shorten the shock for not too much money. They literally put shims inside to space it out so it doesn't extend too far, it's that simple. Then all you need is the ride height adjuster and honestly, that's REALLY easy to find. If you look hard enough, you'll probably find an entire 749R rear end for sale, link, shock and ride height adjuster. I recently saw one on here… But I bet it's long gone.

I forgot who bought my stuff! LOL :) SO why don't run those bits?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
The stock link doesn't work well at all. You'll get too much squat and it will change the chassis geometry too much under heavy throttle application. The linear link is easy to get, Dan Kyle or The Duc Shop can shorten the shock for not too much money. They literally put shims inside to space it out so it doesn't extend too far, it's that simple. Then all you need is the ride height adjuster and honestly, that's REALLY easy to find. If you look hard enough, you'll probably find an entire 749R rear end for sale, link, shock and ride height adjuster. I recently saw one on here… But I bet it's long gone.

I forgot who bought my stuff! LOL :) SO why don't run those bits?
Yeah I bought your whole old rear end off Tiago, so I think I'm good to go on the rear. I just got the shock rebuilt as he said he hadn't done it since he bought it from you. Now just trying to sort out the front, so I have to decide on either trying to fit the 28mm Ducshop triples I found used or sourcing a 749r steering tube to run my stock triples at 30mm offset.

EDIT: still curious to hear if those were your numbers above in post #2 or if those were JAson's/DOS's numbers?
 

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Ohh those were Jason's numbers.

However, that's pretty much what I ran on my 749R. I didn't use that rear end until the very tail of my season however, so I really didn't get it setup to my liking.

I'd go for the double eccentric. Just keep looking, one will show up for sure. Call The Duc Shop and ask 'em of they have something. Sometimes Mark has some shit stored away for this exact purpose. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I actually did just email them -- the 28mm triples are from them, so I wonder if they have any tips for setup and for making them fit with the 23.5 rake. If it comes down to it I might just try to sell these off and pick up a set of 30mm triples, but it doesn't seem like 28 vs. 30 would be a world of difference in the greater scheme of things. But we'll see. Thanks for the inputs.
 

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The 28mm should be OK... just gotta raise the front up. I use to run my fork caps flush with the top triple clamp. On the 848 I put cap extenders on and raised the whole bike even higher. The 749/999 doesn't mind being a bit lower then the 848/1098/1198.

I'll say this much, chassis geometry setup is critical with these bikes. Few mm here and there make dramatic differences.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The 28mm should be OK... just gotta raise the front up. I use to run my fork caps flush with the top triple clamp. On the 848 I put cap extenders on and raised the whole bike even higher. The 749/999 doesn't mind being a bit lower then the 848/1098/1198.

I'll say this much, chassis geometry setup is critical with these bikes. Few mm here and there make dramatic differences.
I hear ya -- the difference dropping or raising your forks that 4-5 mm can make is immense.

In your numbers above -- your ride height is measured eye to eye? That's shorter than I've seen posted typically but that could be because the 749r ride height rod needs to be shorter in the 255 range due to the linear linkage? And the non-749Rs do best in the 285 range?
 

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Its kind of old data unfortunately, I don't think it works very well either. Jason went off to do his own thing after section 8 and even though he screwed many people and went into hiding, his data is very good. He tested with some top professional riders in the Canadian superbike series.

These are the recommended base numbers:

Trail 101.2mm

Swingarm angle 11deg

Steering head angle 23 deg

Triple Clamp offset 30mm

Front ride height 715mm

Rear ride height 255mm

Swingarm length 505-510mm

Wheelbase 1445-1455mm

Weight distribution 52f/48r

I'm not sure if the 749S has the rake adjuster in the steering tube. If it does, you can buy the 749R double eccentric steering tube from ebay and you won't need to buy 30mm offset triple clamps. This setup also requires a linear rate rear link. You'd probably have to find one on ebay from the 749R as well. However, you'd need to get the shock shortened and use a shorter ride height adjuster.

I use to run a very similar setup on my 749R and it worked well enough for me to win races.
Tuned, is there a trick to measuring the front & rear ride height? pics if you have them too, please.
 

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Tuned, is there a trick to measuring the front & rear ride height? pics if you have them too, please.
Sure, setting up the bike can be complex, especially without the right tools. Assuming your suspension preload is right, shock/forks are setup for you AND you're running the linear rate link.

First you start with the rear. Get out your smart phone, install an app which allows you to do angle. Then raise the bike off the ground so the wheels dangle and it's perfectly flat. On the 749/999, you can put the smart phone directly onto the swing arm to measure down angle. 11- 13 degree's is what your looking for. At the same time, you should attempt to bring the rear wheel back as far as you can. On the 749/999, the best I got was 500mm with a 14/39 I believe.

You want the bike to be very flat with a rider on it. So there are two ways we use to figure out if your close on numbers. First way is to measure trail, second way is to throw the bike on some scales and figure out weight balance.

With trail, I usually print out the ol' rake/trail diagram from google and throw it on the ground next to the bike, I always get confused which line is which. Then you need to put someone on the bike and have others hold it in place with the bike on the ground. I use laser pointer with one of those rubber open-ended cable ties Ducati's come with, to hold the pointer in the right place as I make marks on the ground. I usually put a piece of white tape along the ground and mark on it with a magic marker. Your looking for around 100mm of trail, not much over and not much under. That's pretty much the best baseline you can get. If you're over or under, start adjusting ride height to compensate, but do it on the front first. Everyone goes to the rear, but it has other issues related to squat which make it important to keep with a good amount of ride height.

With weight balance, you can do that without someone on the bike. Simply get identical scales, put the bike on them without anyone putting pressure on the machine and figure out what the balance is. This will tell you if the bike is flat or not. Good base weight distribution on these bike is 52/48, that's where I'd start and it's a good indication you've got things setup well.

The final step is to mark your settings. This is where the Ducati ride height tool comes into play. We measure from the tool down to the center of the rear axel on the rear. With the front, we measure from the center of the axel up to the top of the triple clamp. Both measurements are taken with the suspension fully unloaded with the bike off the ground. Once you have those numbers written down, then you can take it to the track and see what it feels like. I generally ride around for a day with new settings, focusing on suspension tuning, rather then chassis. I know those numbers are a good starting point and if I have any problems, I can compensate through tire pressure, damping, preload changes, air gap in the forks and if none of that works, minor ride height changes. The last thing you wanna do is make huge ride height changes at the track, knowing your numbers are a good baseline, without focusing on the other things first.
 

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In your numbers above -- your ride height is measured eye to eye? That's shorter than I've seen posted typically but that could be because the 749r ride height rod needs to be shorter in the 255 range due to the linear linkage? And the non-749Rs do best in the 285 range?
Not quite sure to be honest. I've always focused on swing arm angle and not special Ducati tools. I use the Ducati tool only after I've measured swing arm angle. What you're trying to do is prevent the rear end from squatting, which is basically the rear axel going HIGHER then the swing arm pivot under acceleration. This causes the front to raise off the ground, which causes stability issues and potentially loss of traction.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Been a while since this thread got bumped, so I figured I would revive it with how my bike development is coming along. My 749s went the way of the dodo so all my efforts are now being focused on my 999. I put the 749r DU3011 with the Chandler mod along with the 749r linear link and ride height rod on this past weekend with the ride height rod at 240mm center-of-eye-to-center-of-eye before dropping the bike off at Evan Steel Performance here in Tucson for some work. Work being done is: new clutch and brake masters; Corse Dynamics 30mm offset triples and tapered steering head bearings; 15/40 sprockets and 520 chain conversion with the intention of getting as much swingarm length out of it that I can, hopefully in the 505-510mm range; Nemesis Traction Control System install; GiPro Gear Indicator Install; SP Electronics Direct/Reverse Shift Quickshifter install that should integrate with the TCS; and finally new Dunlop D212GPs in 190/55 size on the back. So it's going to be a completely different bike after all this.

ESP will be setting my sag for me and initial damping setting, and then I'll test everything out at Arroyo Seco next weekend with hopes of doing some local DRR/ASMA racing by the end of September. Is the 999 woefully outgunned in the horsepower department against the other heavyweight/unlimited bikes? Yep. But luckily most of the DRR tracks and Arroyo Seco don't have an insanely long straight like some of the tracks I rode out East, so hopefully getting the suspension completely dialed in with all this money/effort will make it competitive. Or at least fun for a novice racer.

Still working on finding a D212 tire slip map for the Nemesis TCS, but it came with a D211 map to start with at least. Will report back after next weekend!
 

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Been a while since this thread got bumped, so I figured I would revive it with how my bike development is coming along. My 749s went the way of the dodo so all my efforts are now being focused on my 999. I put the 749r DU3011 with the Chandler mod along with the 749r linear link and ride height rod on this past weekend with the ride height rod at 240mm center-of-eye-to-center-of-eye before dropping the bike off at Evan Steel Performance here in Tucson for some work. Work being done is: new clutch and brake masters; Corse Dynamics 30mm offset triples and tapered steering head bearings; 15/40 sprockets and 520 chain conversion with the intention of getting as much swingarm length out of it that I can, hopefully in the 505-510mm range; Nemesis Traction Control System install; GiPro Gear Indicator Install; SP Electronics Direct/Reverse Shift Quickshifter install that should integrate with the TCS; and finally new Dunlop D212GPs in 190/55 size on the back. So it's going to be a completely different bike after all this.

ESP will be setting my sag for me and initial damping setting, and then I'll test everything out at Arroyo Seco next weekend with hopes of doing some local DRR/ASMA racing by the end of September. Is the 999 woefully outgunned in the horsepower department against the other heavyweight/unlimited bikes? Yep. But luckily most of the DRR tracks and Arroyo Seco don't have an insanely long straight like some of the tracks I rode out East, so hopefully getting the suspension completely dialed in with all this money/effort will make it competitive. Or at least fun for a novice racer.

Still working on finding a D212 tire slip map for the Nemesis TCS, but it came with a D211 map to start with at least. Will report back after next weekend!
Looking forward to hearing how you went
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Got out on the track today at Arroyo Seco on the new suspension setup. To make it relevant to anyone that reads, here's what the new setup consists of:

Ohlins DU3011 shock modifed by Ducshop with the "Chandler mod" (info below), 749r linear link and ride height adjuster, D212 tires, 30mm Corse Dynamics offset triples (had Ohlins forks before), added a link with a new 520 chain and 15/40 sprocket combo which gives me about 505mm of swingarm length, plus some other things that don't matter so much for the suspension side of things (Nemesis TCS; reverse shifter that will eventually be a quickshifter, but not til I get it set up with the Nemesis; and a sweet ass Dual XGPS150A GPS unit to go with the Harry's Lap Timer on my iPhone).

And to make the info more legit, I want to note that Evan Steele Performance is doing all the suspension setup. And for anyone not familiar, they run their own moto performance shop here in Tucson, and spend their weekends crew chiefing for MotoAmerica's Red Bull Yamaha team this year, and for Aaron Yates and the EBRFactory Team in World Superbike last year. So these dudes have probably already forgotten more than I will ever know about motorcycles.

Foremost, initial geometry setup this week is front Ohlins with one line showing above triples, rear ride height adjuster set to 240.5mm center-of-eye-to-center-of-eye, and I'm running D212s which are quoted as 600mm tall front and 649mm rear. We also added a link to my 15/40 sprocket combo and I have about 505mm of swingarm length now too and 30mm offset triples to go with the 23.5 steering angle. So we went into the sag setting yesterday with hopes of getting to 30mm rear and 35mm front sag, but the 100NM spring on the shock has turned out to not quite be enough for me at 185 lbs without gear. We achieved 31mm rear and only 40mm front with preload maxed on both front and rear. I don't have clicker settings in front of me right now, but that's less relevant to everybody considering both front and rear have been revalved.

Today on the track I was testing a lot of new things including most importantly the new suspension setup. Arroyo Seco is very bumpy, and I spent two sessions acquainting with a new track, but I was at somewhat of a loss because the bike really did not feel good. I convinced Phil from ESP, a former successful club racer himself and an obviously experienced professional crew chief, to take the bike out since I don't know what I don't know. He did one lap, came back in and said "man this thing is soft and woopy." And he's 25lbs lighter than me. So we added one turn of ride height in the rear which I think is about 1.5mm, which puts us at 242mm, increased fork compression damping a couple clicks, and due to the maxed preload the fork was staying in the earliest part of the stroke under brakes and in turns, actually making it kind of divey/dodgy under brakes and pushing the front end low into turns (like in a turn the bars would feel like they were pulling to the low side), so we then actually backed off 3mm of front preload and added another click of compression damping to try to allow the fork to get down into the travel but remain rigid enough for my weight. took it back out for a full 15 minute session, came in and said "man this thing is world's better, you can actually have fun on it now." He also said "this thing is sweet, I feel like Troy Bayliss!"

But the end result was 242mm rear ride height and 1 line showing on the forks, relevant to this post.

Now to get both the forks and shock resprung because this thing would be heavenly bliss if sprung correctly and we weren't messing around with the damping all day today trying to make it work for this track weekend (I don't have the fork spring numbers on this computer so I can't relate that here unfortunately).

Also, in case anyone was wondering, I found some old info from Ducshop describing what is known as the Chandler mod they do to an Ohlins shock to make it work better with a linear link, so while I don't work for them, here's some useful info in case anyone ever wants to pursue that:


"The Chandler Mod means it has a 25mm rebound stop and MX2 piston (46mm motocross piston, which is larger than stock) -- started as a long-stroke shock, but was shortened (shortened with a thicker spacer and longer top-out spring) to work with linear linkage and to enable hi/lo-speed compression adjustment that other shocks wouldn't offer. This whole mod is supposed to be ideal on rough bumpy tracks common in the US (compared to Europe) with the linear link."

If anyone wants any info on the new lap timer setup I was running today, feel free to reply. I'm really happy with it though, super trick setup and it takes up very little room on the top triple.

Oh and I also only forgot that I was using reverse shift once today, which ain't bad for my first time ever using it. It took conscious effort though, so it will take a bit to re-hardwire my brain. Cheers gents.
 

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Great stuff mate, how did the TCS go? If your going to use a quickshifter the old style translogic and dynojet plug straight into the TCS. I pretty much have the identical setup
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Well the only map supplied with the TCS was for a Pirelli Diablo Supercorsa, but that's what you get when you buy stuff on Ebay. So I kept it set on 7 all weekend running the Dunlop D212s, but it was probably fine because I was feeling out the whole new setup anyway. I felt the TCS activate only once, and that was a noticeable, quick little slide getting on the throttle at the end of the session on hot tires on a very hot track, but I would credit the TCS with keeping that from turning ugly. It probably activated a hell of a lot more than once, but I didn't have a camera pointed at it to look at after. And my SP Quickshifter was just a direct reverse shifter as we didn't get into the Nemesis software yet to set up the QS in there. Which I think we need to do. But hopefully the SP works with the system just the same as the two you mentioned above. I know the Competition Systems website says "the system is triggered by the input signal being pulled to ground, so any switch-type system is able to do this including our own products," and their own product is a direct reverse shift lever with the switch built in just like the SP I got. So I'm assuming it functions the same.

But it was a good intro in reverse shifting anyway. I'm taking the bike back to ESP this week for new springs front and back -- so to add what I had above concerning my setup and my weight of 185 without gear, my forks have .95 springs and shock has a 100N/m spring, and both are under sprung for me with this geometry.

You getting your R sorted for the next race weekend?
 

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Still no joy with my TCS, spoke to **** in the UK he said it was either the ECU was an earlier one or one of the connectors might have the pins round the wrong way.
So hopefully tomorrow I'll have it working and the quickshifter connected in. I'm also thinking of going the GP shift pattern, the CF airbox and storm exhaust are on just need to get it dyno'd.
I have a practice day on the 18th, racing 19/20th, so on schedule. I have also fitted the 301 ohlins but have yet to get the suspension sorted I'll be making some phone calls tomorrow to try get that done as well.
 

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