Adjusting idle on a 1098 besides DDS?

11569 Views 23 Replies 5 Participants Last post by 219R, Jul 27, 2014

mahchine

Discussion Starter · Jul 23, 2014

I know to properly adjust the idle on these things you have to hook it up to the DDS system or you have reflash the ecu etc....

Idle now is around 1200

But is there any quick fix that may not be "ideal" (I know) but would help bump up the idle a bit so my bike won't stall out right after it starts. In other words, I crack the throttle, then push the starter....bike starts and will die if I do not hold the throttle a bit open for about 10 seconds. I just want to be able to push the starter to start my bike and walk away so to speak.

Thanks guys

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tye1138

· #2 · Jul 23, 2014 (Edited)

Cold start idle is not the same as hot idle. The electronics are suppose to sense the cold temp and keep the RPM's higher then normal so it doesn't stall and then it should settle at whatever stock RPM.

You don't wanna go messing around with the throttle body idle adjustment, raising that won't help. However, perhaps your air screws are not calibrated properly. Its a common problem with stalling bikes.

219R

· #3 · Jul 23, 2014 (Edited)

The 748s, 998s, older Ducatis always had a fast idle position on the twist grip. So they would have a faster idle when in a cool/cold motor state. Kinda handy. The 848/1098/etc models did away with that feature, going instead with an electronic idle control feature. Prolly something to do with emissions control or whatever. Anyway, after a little weight trimming, I acquired a billet throttle body bracket to replace the stamp steel piece of shit. Lo' and behold, no provision for the elec idle control, after some information gathering, I plugged the hole in the airbox, plugged the holes in the throttle bodies for the hoses, and did away with all that stuff.
Now hear is where we get back to the OPs question. Yes, you can adjust the idle control on the throttle bodies! First, mark the positions of the OEM brass screws, they are the big headed ones on the right side of the throttle bodies, turn each equally counter clock wise to increase the idle, I would suggest a 1/4 turn at a time. With the idle stuff removed from my 848 motor, I ended up 1 full turn from the marked spot on each throttle body. Bingo!! The motor idles perfectly when it gets warmed up @ about 1200rpm, and I can let it set there under a very smooth idle, again, after the bike temp is about 120+/- deg. The only time you have to sit there is in the beginning of the start up cycle. and I saved a bunch of weight, up high under the tank. As it turns out, the electronic idle control is only for cool/cold starts, and activity under 4-5k rpm. So street riding weight is not much of an issue, race bike, different story..... take care of the ounces, the pounds will take care of themselves. Just sayin. Don't be afraid to experiment with your bike in a controlled test, it is fun stuff. And, of course, certainly don't believe all the bullshit you read from folks on the internet.

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tye1138

· #4 · Jul 23, 2014 (Edited)

Let me try to explain myself further.

If your warm/hot idle is perfect (which you say it is) then adjusting the throttle bodies will just bring up the idle for warm/hot as well.

The fueling system on these bikes is very complex. It has to be complex because unlike the Japanese counterparts which run under throttle plate injectors, Ducati only runs injectors above the throttle plate. With the throttle plate closed, its very hard for air/fuel mixture to travel around it, make sense? So the throttle bodies have a little bypass hole down the side AND a little screw which allows you to make adjustments to this. At the factory, these are calibrated and set, but as the bike warms up and cools down during its first days in use, those screws can fall out of calibration. Its very easy to calibrate by using a vacuum balancing tool. Another way is to simply listen to the chug of the motor at idle. If its wrong, the motor will sound like its chugging, but if its right, the motor will sound much smoother.

Due to emissions regulations, the A/F at idle is highly controlled. Unfortunately, without programming your own map into the ECU, its very hard to control the idle fueling. The easy solution is to understand why the stalling happens (example above) and then do something about it via the air screws AND CO adjustment in the ECU. Since its much cheaper to access the throttle bodies then it is to buy the software and adjust the CO, I'd start there.

Removing the cold start system from under the throttle bodies, is not a solution.

I've been building my own superbikes for years and still to this day maintain them for other people. So yes, I've been through this exact process numerous times and I've found the throttle body calibration to be a huge issue with these bikes when it comes to idling, ESPECIALLY when cold.

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219R

· #5 · Jul 23, 2014

:laughing:

rick_b

· #6 · Jul 23, 2014

All good, but what if you want more idle that the air screws will give you?

Rick

tye1138

· #7 · Jul 23, 2014 (Edited)

rick_b said:
All good, but what if you want more idle that the air screws will give you?

I've done a lot of tuning with the air screws and the range is absolutely amazing. Turn them in, the bike will not idle. Turn them all the way out, it will rev to 3k easily.

I have a few of the electronic twin balancers and they work great on the older bikes. On the 848/1098/1198, its harder to tune with them since the fittings are not present. I believe you can put the fittings on, but I never bothered. You can do it by ear no problem at all. May take an unexperienced person a few tries, but once you get it and understand what to listen for, its a piece of cake. Remember, those air screws are only there for when the throttle plates are closed. When you open the throttle, the air screws/passageways are unused as the vacuum from the engine will suck through the largest port possible and thats the gap between the throttle plate and housing. At that point, throttle plate calibration is done through the sync actuator on the side.

Mind you, this is a Ducati dealership remedy that actually works.

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mahchine

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jul 24, 2014

Im going to go play with the screws but what if by chance that they are not 100% balanced...will it damage anything? I guess there is nothing to worry about playing around with it?

So I guess there is not much I can do about the "cold" idle and I would have to hold the throttle open for those 10 seconds? I see videos of people starting their DUCS almost immediately by just one push of the button. Kinda what I am aiming for. Sounds like I can play a bit but ultimately software is the final fix.

Sorry to sound a bit repetitive here.

rick_b

· #9 · Jul 24, 2014

tye1138 said:
I've done a lot of tuning with the air screws and the range is absolutely amazing. Turn them in, the bike will not idle. Turn them all the way out, it will rev to 3k easily.

I have a few of the electronic twin balancers and they work great on the older bikes. On the 848/1098/1198, its harder to tune with them since the fittings are not present. I believe you can put the fittings on, but I never bothered. You can do it by ear no problem at all. May take an unexperienced person a few tries, but once you get it and understand what to listen for, its a piece of cake. Remember, those air screws are only there for when the throttle plates are closed. When you open the throttle, the air screws/passageways are unused as the vacuum from the engine will suck through the largest port possible and thats the gap between the throttle plate and housing. At that point, throttle plate calibration is done through the sync actuator on the side.

Mind you, this is a Ducati dealership remedy that actually works.

Interesting, I have tried the air screws all the way out, but never been able to get more than 18 - 1900 rpm's hot.

Rick

tye1138

· #10 · Jul 24, 2014

mahchine said:
Im going to go play with the screws but what if by chance that they are not 100% balanced...will it damage anything? I guess there is nothing to worry about playing around with it?

For sure no problem, no damage. Its just at idle remember. The motor will either run or not run, its pretty easy.

Long flat bladed screw driver and a flashlight to see the screws, thats all you need. Pull off the right side fairing and start adjusting. I'd go slowly and mark where it was set at with a black magic marker so you know.

Tassie V2

· #11 · Jul 24, 2014

Ok, now for a track bike ... I want to set my idle slightly higher so as to help not have that throttle shut down through the corners. Can I just adjust the linkages to control min idle ?

219R

· #12 · Jul 24, 2014

I have never messed with the linkage, sync throttle bodies, but.. I would try to turn the idle screws equally (each throttle body) 1/4 turn counter clockwise, and study the rpms on the dash, use the mode switch to isolate the rpm function. Then go another equal 1/4 turn... etc. you can always go back to your referenced ._ if marked ._ before you start. Let me know what you find.

tye1138

· #13 · Jul 24, 2014

Tassie V2 said:
Ok, now for a track bike ... I want to set my idle slightly higher so as to help not have that throttle shut down through the corners. Can I just adjust the linkages to control min idle ?

On a track-only bike, I recommend running an aftermarket ECU so you can get the proper fueling. The two aftermarket ECU's have idle control dialog boxes, where you simply type in the idle you want. If it doesn't get there, then a tweak of the air screws OR throttle plate stopper could be necessary. But its important to set the software right so its not over or under fueling the bike at idle. As is, the throttle plate gets covered in fuel since the injectors are spraying directly at it when at idle.

I wouldn't touch the calibration between the two throttle plates.

219R

· #14 · Jul 24, 2014

Oh, hell yeah, a Microtec 197 ECU is definitely the way to go!! Especially if you have a $1000.00+- dollars to invest in the part, dyno time, tuning, etc.etc If "big daddy sugarbucks" flies in from California or ships the money, most of us would be "all in"!!! Just sayin!!!

219R

· #15 · Jul 24, 2014

Come to think of it, ask him to also throw in a

TCS-848.1098... Nemesis TCS for 848/1098/1198 with race
seat

Kinda like to have one myself!!!

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rick_b

· #16 · Jul 24, 2014

Any one ever drilled the throttle plates to get a higher idle? (track bike only)

I have a Microtec ECU and it still limited in how high you can idle it up

Rick

tye1138

· #17 · Jul 24, 2014

rick_b said:
Any one ever drilled the throttle plates to get a higher idle? (track bike only)

It would change the vortex effect, so it wouldn't work.

Making a race bike better at idle is an uncommon concern. Getting them to work properly at greater RPM's with the throttle plates starting to open, is way harder in my view. That initial throttle opening is a big deal and mapping/TB sync plays a much greater role. If you drilled holes in the throttle plates, it would destroy your ability to get a proper vortex when the throttle was opened. Fuel wouldn't atomize properly and as a consequence, your A/F would be all over the place. The key is to atomize the fuel properly and thats the major detractor of the single above throttle plate shower injector. It doesn't really work well in all situations. Awesome for flat out, full throttle applications, but for half throttle or on/off throttle, its an issue.

Building a decent idle fueling map is very easy, but you'd need a lambda sensor and harness. Mark @ The Duc Shop can make one for your and point you in the direction to source a cheap lambda. Its inexpensive if you go his way and the results are excellent. I use to run the Nemesis ECU with lambda sensors on my race bike and the A/F auto tuning function was amazing. Forget dyno's, forget expense, do everything yourself. In fact, you don't even need to waste track time, just hit up a long straight road somewhere and pound through the gears, the system figures out the rest.

I digress… If you have issues with your race bike idling properly, the tricks I talked about above should work fine. Just take your time and don't forget that fueling makes a big difference as well.

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rick_b

· #18 · Jul 25, 2014

tye1138 said:
It would change the vortex effect, so it wouldn't work.

Making a race bike better at idle is an uncommon concern. Getting them to work properly at greater RPM's with the throttle plates starting to open, is way harder in my view. That initial throttle opening is a big deal and mapping/TB sync plays a much greater role. If you drilled holes in the throttle plates, it would destroy your ability to get a proper vortex when the throttle was opened. Fuel wouldn't atomize properly and as a consequence, your A/F would be all over the place. The key is to atomize the fuel properly and thats the major detractor of the single above throttle plate shower injector. It doesn't really work well in all situations. Awesome for flat out, full throttle applications, but for half throttle or on/off throttle, its an issue.

Building a decent idle fueling map is very easy, but you'd need a lambda sensor and harness. Mark @ The Duc Shop can make one for your and point you in the direction to source a cheap lambda. Its inexpensive if you go his way and the results are excellent. I use to run the Nemesis ECU with lambda sensors on my race bike and the A/F auto tuning function was amazing. Forget dyno's, forget expense, do everything yourself. In fact, you don't even need to waste track time, just hit up a long straight road somewhere and pound through the gears, the system figures out the rest.

I digress… If you have issues with your race bike idling properly, the tricks I talked about above should work fine. Just take your time and don't forget that fueling makes a big difference as well.

Interesting point. Throttle plates are often drilled in injected circuit car. I'm talking a small hole plus which side of the plates you drill makes a difference, by doing this it allow the plate stay closed which gives you full use of the idle air system and a higher idle.

Rick

Tassie V2

· #19 · Jul 25, 2014

Actually I have Tune boy mapping with ability to adjust AF and I think idle rpm. Havent played with it since putting on a supplied map. Might investigate ? But wouldnt just srewing out the linkage stopper adjust the rpm 200 - 250 rpm higher be a better option ? Have the airbox off at the moment.

tye1138

· #20 · Jul 25, 2014

Tassie V2 said:
Actually I have Tune boy mapping with ability to adjust AF and I think idle rpm. Havent played with it since putting on a supplied map. Might investigate ? But wouldnt just srewing out the linkage stopper adjust the rpm 200 - 250 rpm higher be a better option ? Have the airbox off at the moment.

Yea, the piggy back systems like tune boy are very limited, but you can try. Usually they don't effect idle fueling at all.

Increasing the throttle plate opening at idle using the throttle plate stopper adjustment, will for sure increase the idle. But if the fueling is wrong and the air screw's not balanced, it will still stall. Furthermore, throttle plate sync becomes a greater issue as well and that does require a bit more work to correct because you can't access the tops of the throttle bodies on the 848/1098/1198 easily.

In my experience, its far better to calibrate/tune the air screws first, then it is to simply adjust the throttle plate stopper.

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