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^ Gr8 news,,,, love the classification.... kinda like having different classes in the same race, maybe we ought to have a "waved" start!!!
 

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Maybe Buell will be next!!! :)
 

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Actually its sad news in my view. Aprilia will be moving their entire World Superbike team to MotoGP. So there won't be any factory Aprilia team anymore. The left over Factory RSV4 Superbikes will be leased to a team either Althea or Alstare, so the machines won't completely disappear. But neither one of those teams has the money to retain a top rider. Remember, Checa rode without a salary when he was with Althea. A lot of riders won't do that, so it will be very interesting to see if they are competitive machines in 2015.

What confuses me the most, is the exodus towards MotoGP. Suzuki and Aprilia in 2015/2016. Rumors are, Kawasaki and KTM in 2017, with KTM on the verge of announcing their discontinuation of the RC8 superbike. Does this mean the manufacturers are doing better financially and have the money to make a real MotoGP effort? Or does this mean, the manufacturers aren't happy with the new rules in World Superbikes (basically neutering the premiere class) and wish to put their R&D efforts somewhere else?

I wonder if this was Dorna's game plan all along. Neuter Superbikes to the point where no manufacturers want to race there anymore, so they'll all go to MotoGP. Its very unfortunate in my view, as we all know, Aprilia are not going to beat the likes of Honda, Yamaha and Ducati. So they're entering knowing quite well, results will be similar to when they were in the series a few years ago. Going from best of the best in World Superbike to back of the pack in MotoGP… just sad stuff. :(
 

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Pretty simple to understand.... everyone has heard, and gotten the memo, that Michelin is THE TIRE in MotoGP starting in 2016, so it is understandable that everyone wants to race on the best tires and be ready for the fight. Evens the playing field..... :)
 

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Pretty simple to understand.... everyone has heard, and gotten the memo, that Michelin is THE TIRE in MotoGP starting in 2016, so it is understandable that everyone wants to race on the best tires and be ready for the fight. Evens the playing field..... :)
Well, that's an interesting theory...but not one that seems to me to have anything to do with anything. I think Tye is potentially onto something though. Aprilia was very outspoken about their dissatisfaction with the new SBK rules.

OTOH, why Suzuki wants to come back and get their ass handed to them again, I'll never know. :stickpoke
 

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^So you aren't buying the tire theory?........well!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well, that's an interesting theory...but not one that seems to me to have anything to do with anything. I think Tye is potentially onto something though. Aprilia was very outspoken about their dissatisfaction with the new SBK rules.

OTOH, why Suzuki wants to come back and get their ass handed to them again, I'll never know. :stickpoke
Yea, interesting points. I like seeing new manufacturers competing, rather than just Honda, Yamaha, and Ducati, but not at the cost of quitting WSBK. That's where ALL the manufacturers really need to be in my opinion. WSBK is great racing and seeing what production bikes can do when you mod the shit out of them is really cool in my view. I hope some of these factories will continue to support WSBK, because they won't perform all that great in MotoGP. I mean really...who in their right mind thinks they beat Marquez on a Honda right now, aside from the Yamaha GP team (who haven't yet, but they've been close)??

Suzuki will be at the back, Aprilia will be at the back for the first couple of years at least. If Kawasaki and KTM join, they will too be at the back. I guess personally I'm hoping for 2 good things to come out of this:

1. Go back to one single class withing the MotoGP races, not this "open" or "crt" bullshit. Just 1 class, everyone goes by the same exact rules.

2. Development of technologies from more manufacturers that will then transfer to WSBK and subsequently production bikes.
 

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Superbikes, whether its BSB, AMA, WSBK, IDM, CIV, ASB… should be a world-wide FIM controlled rule standard and manufacturers should be developing machines on the production line, to partake in those series. Superbike's should be where things are developed; engine's, electronics, chassis, suspension, the manufactures test bed should be on the SBK grid, trying year after year to build a better production bike in order to be more competitive in the series.

Maybe the business of superbikes is faltering. Maybe manufacturers simply don't sell enough (compared to other models) to justify the year after year development. Boutique brands like Aprilia, Ducati, MV Agusta, Bimota, KTM and Buell, are fully capable of making a superbike push since they rely heavily on a different class of person to buy those machines. But now, Aprilia and KTM are both pulling out of the business and developing prototypes which have little bearing on production machines. Yamaha stopped years ago whilst Honda and Suzuki haven't developed all-new bikes (like the ZX10) since 2009/2010, even though they still compete at a semi-factory level in AMA, WSBK and BSB. So maybe some of the push away from superbikes is simply due to finances.

What I don't quite get is why manufactures would be willing to race at the back of a grid, well out of television coverage in MotoGP vs be at the front of the grid, winning races in World Superbikes? Television deals play a big role in this, but in much of Europe, MotoGP is on "pay per view", not on public channels like its been in the past. Maybe this TV deal is more lucrative? Maybe the numbers are positive on MotoGP and very bad on World Superbikes, making more sponsors head towards MotoGP? These are all questions and there really aren't very many straight-forward answers. But from what I can tell, there is a huge piece of the puzzle missing, which is the deciding factor on these manufactures leaving WSBK and it has little to do with funds if they're spending SO MUCH in MotoGP.
 

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1. Go back to one single class withing the MotoGP races, not this "open" or "crt" bullshit. Just 1 class, everyone goes by the same exact rules.
Agreed. This is the worlds premiere 2 wheeled motorsport and the rules are all over the place. Single ECU for all teams with a max of 16k rev limit (that'll slow 'em down). Allow engine development back in the series, with a maximum of 8 motors per season for ALL riders, ALL teams AND 22L fuel limit. Then everyone is happy and sure if Marc Marquez wins more races, then guess what? He's the best rider on the best bike. Wanna beat him? Find a better rider, build a better bike!

2. Development of technologies from more manufacturers that will then transfer to WSBK and subsequently production bikes.
Outside of the Aprilia RSV4, there isn't any MotoGP inspired technology or development currently used on our mass-produced production street machines. You could claim the crossplane crank and traction/wheelie control, but thats actually not right. The M1 uses "big bang" theory not crossplane and traction/wheelie control was in Formula 1 AND World Superbikes at the same time it came to MotoGP.

Problem is, even in World Superbikes, the trickle down has taken a long time. It took Ducati from 2007 to 2012 to use the technology they had in the 999F07 on a production bike. The Yamaha World Superbike has an under seat/tail fuel cell, that to this day, still isn't on the production R1. Only Ducati and Aprilia have real/true, fast-action fly by wire with auto blip on down shifts, both technologies were being used by Ducati back when Nori Haga was on the bike in WSBK and just finally made it on to the Panigale in 2012.

Its great we finally have access to it, but where are the 210bhp liter bikes? Where are the sub 400lb dry production superbikes? All of that technology in those 240rwhp superbikes on the grid and we're lucky to break 170rwhp and 430lb dry with production models. Its been that way for such a long time, with the addition of ABS, the current big 4 liter bikes are heavier then they've been in a while.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Outside of the Aprilia RSV4, there isn't any MotoGP inspired technology or development currently used on our mass-produced production street machines. You could claim the crossplane crank and traction/wheelie control, but thats actually not right. The M1 uses "big bang" theory not crossplane and traction/wheelie control was in Formula 1 AND World Superbikes at the same time it came to MotoGP.

Problem is, even in World Superbikes, the trickle down has taken a long time. It took Ducati from 2007 to 2012 to use the technology they had in the 999F07 on a production bike. The Yamaha World Superbike has an under seat/tail fuel cell, that to this day, still isn't on the production R1. Only Ducati and Aprilia have real/true, fast-action fly by wire with auto blip on down shifts, both technologies were being used by Ducati back when Nori Haga was on the bike in WSBK and just finally made it on to the Panigale in 2012.

Its great we finally have access to it, but where are the 210bhp liter bikes? Where are the sub 400lb dry production superbikes? All of that technology in those 240rwhp superbikes on the grid and we're lucky to break 170rwhp and 430lb dry with production models. Its been that way for such a long time, with the addition of ABS, the current big 4 liter bikes are heavier then they've been in a while.
There is more technology on our bikes that comes from MotoGP than you think. Can't speak for all brands since I don't know, but as far as Ducati goes, the traction control system used on the 1x98 S, and probably the newer one used on the Panigale came from the MotoGP bikes from about 8-10 years ago. The instrument display/dash on the 1098 is very similar to what the GP bike used back in 05-06ish time. Those are just some examples. I'm sure there are more.

Yes, they take long to get to production bikes, but did you really expect something to come to the dealer floors the following year?? I was told by a guy that works at Ducati, that they typically start working on a new bike about 5 years before it gets released....so the Panigale was being developed around 2007 or so. It's the same with cars also, 3-5 years is very common.

Now just because there is the technology to make 350 lb 220 hp bikes, doesn't mean that they should for production. For one cost would be pretty high, and they wouldn't sell many. Another reason would be safety. Could you imagine what would happen when some 18 year old who has more money than brains just learned to ride and got a 220+ hp superbike?? It's just not needed. Most people can't handle 150 hp bikes as is, they sure as hell don't need more. The other reason would be maintenance. The more power you get out of an engine of the same displacement, the more maintenance it usually requires. I personally would hate to have to rebuild the engine on my track bike every 500-1000 miles. Time consuming and expensive. I'd rather have less power and better reliability.
 

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What I don't quite get is why manufactures would be willing to race at the back of a grid, well out of television coverage in MotoGP vs be at the front of the grid, winning races in World Superbikes? Television deals play a big role in this, but in much of Europe, MotoGP is on "pay per view", not on public channels like its been in the past. Maybe this TV deal is more lucrative? Maybe the numbers are positive on MotoGP and very bad on World Superbikes, making more sponsors head towards MotoGP? These are all questions and there really aren't very many straight-forward answers. But from what I can tell, there is a huge piece of the puzzle missing, which is the deciding factor on these manufactures leaving WSBK and it has little to do with funds if they're spending SO MUCH in MotoGP.
I king of agree with you on your thoughts, but I also think that the changes with the ECU's and tires should make it "a little" more interesting in the near future. I also think that it is good to see more seats available for the future as well. Lots of younger talent coming up around the same time that things will change. Will it work? WEll, we never know.. Who would have predicted the results of '07? Let the younger guys stay hungry.. And maybe, just maybe.. Things will get shaken up a little bit. Though, in truth? I think a lot of that will be happening behind Marc.

Now just because there is the technology to make 350 lb 220 hp bikes, doesn't mean that they should for production. For one cost would be pretty high, and they wouldn't sell many. Another reason would be safety. Could you imagine what would happen when some 18 year old who has more money than brains just learned to ride and got a 220+ hp superbike?? It's just not needed. Most people can't handle 150 hp bikes as is, they sure as hell don't need more. The other reason would be maintenance. The more power you get out of an engine of the same displacement, the more maintenance it usually requires. I personally would hate to have to rebuild the engine on my track bike every 500-1000 miles. Time consuming and expensive. I'd rather have less power and better reliability.
Good points.. And I am sure that guys like Hayden and such will still end up over there as the younger crop infiltrates GP.
 

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I have to agree with the suspicion that the FIM and Dorna are wanting to kill off the whole Superbike series. I wondered if that was what they were up to when they bought it in the first place.
To virtually coerce the factories to all race in MotoGP by changing the regulations in both series, and let the WSBK series die, might well make the GP series more interesting, but to lose the Superbike series - often the more exciting and relevant series to our road-based bikes - is too high a price to pay.
As Superbike has become less accessible on TV, or via their site (in this country you have to wait seven days to view a race, even with a Video Pass!) you would have to wonder whether this too is part of a Dorna plan to kill it off.
I would hate to see the demise of the WSBK, which has been so successful for about 25 years. For it to get killed off just a couple of years after Dorna bought it from Flammini would be a bit obvious..

:mad:
 

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as far as Ducati goes, the traction control system used on the 1x98 S, and probably the newer one used on the Panigale came from the MotoGP bikes from about 8-10 years ago.
Little FYI about traction control.

Its been around for decades, Formula 1 was the first to implement it. It was banned not far after implementation. In MotoGP, Honda had mechanical traction control on their factory 2 strokes, hidden away and never acknowledged. Ducati was secretly developing the traction control system in both World Superbikes AND MotoGP as early as 2003. So its not a MotoGP derived technology at all.

I was told by a guy that works at Ducati, that they typically start working on a new bike about 5 years before it gets released....so the Panigale was being developed around 2007 or so. It's the same with cars also, 3-5 years is very common.
Yep, the Panigale had an unusually long development cycle. The superquadratta engine was functional enough for testing in 2009, but there were some issues which I don't know about, which led them to start from scratch on a frameless machine. Thats why it took such a long time to come out with the Panigale AND why its frameless. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say the superquadratta engine is heavy and they wanted to keep the weight down, so they were forced to ditch the frame.

But yes I agree with you, development cycles can be long. However, we haven't seen any advancement in World Superbikes OR MotoGP worth putting into street bikes as of recent. Power per liter has actually gone DOWN in both series due to limited motor allocation.

Most people can't handle 150 hp bikes as is, they sure as hell don't need more.
Absolutely, but if you aren't going to build powerful machines, what other MotoGP technology are you going to use? Pneumatic valve activation? Seamless gearbox? Substantially more compact, space-saving engine layout? Ultralight/small dry clutches? Big-bang firing order? High lift, Long duration, overlap profile cam's with gear drive? 90 degree "micro" V4's? I mean there is so much technology there, none of which is being used. If you took a CBR600 from 1991 and compared it to the 2014 CBR600R, they're extremely close in design. Not much has changed in all those years and THAT is what I mean by "not much trickle down". Electronics/fueling aside, production based ICE engines haven't really changed that much in 20 years outside of prototype racing.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Its been around for decades, Formula 1 was the first to implement it. It was banned not far after implementation. In MotoGP, Honda had mechanical traction control on their factory 2 strokes, hidden away and never acknowledged. Ducati was secretly developing the traction control system in both World Superbikes AND MotoGP as early as 2003. So its not a MotoGP derived technology at all.
I'm confused by this...seems like a complete contradiction to me. Plus I'm not talking about cars...yes TC and ESC have been on cars for much longer, and they work differently anyway. I'm talking about the TC used on the 1198...as far as I know, it's pretty much the same system they had on the GP bike in the 990cc era. Whether they used that in WSBK or not...sure, maybe, I have no idea.

Absolutely, but if you aren't going to build powerful machines, what other MotoGP technology are you going to use? Pneumatic valve activation? Seamless gearbox? Substantially more compact, space-saving engine layout? Ultralight/small dry clutches? Big-bang firing order? High lift, Long duration, overlap profile cam's with gear drive? 90 degree "micro" V4's? I mean there is so much technology there, none of which is being used. If you took a CBR600 from 1991 and compared it to the 2014 CBR600R, they're extremely close in design. Not much has changed in all those years and THAT is what I mean by "not much trickle down". Electronics/fueling aside, production based ICE engines haven't really changed that much in 20 years outside of prototype racing.
There are other things besides making loads of power that they can use in production bikes, some of which you listed above. Personally, I would love to see the seamless transmissions, auto-blippers for clutchless downshifts, and overall lighter bikes in the future of production bikes.

On another note, in regards to the Aprilia RSV4...that bike's been around for awhile now, so I think they're new for a new model. I somewhat doubt that Aprilia will slow down their efforts to make a badass production bike. The RSV4 was a big success, so I have a feeling that the successor will be an amazing machine...hence they're taking so long to come out with another one ;)
 

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Well........



Wednesday, 10 September 2014 16:21
The partnership between WSBK and the Italian company started in 2004 and now enhanced by this further three year renewal, confirms the longest running control tyre supplier in motorsport history at international level

Dorna WSBK Organization, promoter and organiser of the eni FIM Superbike World Championship, in agreement with the FIM, the International Motorcycling Federation, is pleased to announce that Pirelli has been confirmed as the Official Tyre Supplier of the series, having won the tender scheduled from Monday 28 July to Monday 25 August 2014.

The agreement confirms Pirelli in its current role of sole tyre supplier for all the classes of the FIM Superbike World Championship until the end of the 2018 season.

Starting in the 2004 season, and now in its eleventh year, the technical partnership established between Pirelli, the teams and riders of the eni FIM Superbike World Championship can today boast the record of the longest running control tyre supplier in the history of motorsports at international level. Established with the primary purpose to reduce the overall cost of running the championship, the single tyre formula proposed by Pirelli has steadily increased quality and competitiveness, enabling all the riders, teams and motorcycle manufacturers participating to compete for success in the Championship.


10300013_708889669158000_2485755936092966532_n.jpg

Mr.Bibb will be in MotoGP in 2016... follow the leader!!!
 

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I still don't see how this promotes anything other than your personal preference for Michelin. Control tires are what they are, and they either won't work for everyone the same, or the teams need to do some development in order to make best use of them. Control tires are a fact of World Championship racing, period. The good teams will be able to make the best use of whatever tire the series provides.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
^I agree. Tire brands and models make much more of a difference in club racing and for the track day enthusiast. For most of us it's a hell of a lot easier, cheaper, quicker to just use tires that work well for us, rather than make huge changes to the bike to work well with a certain type.

I suppose I would've been a big Michelin fan boy like Bob, if they would've offered me the job that I applied for a while back. But since they didn't, they're on my shit list! Whatever...their loss! :D...go Dunlop, Bridgestone, and Pirelli! :D
 
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I still don't see how this promotes anything other than your personal preference for Michelin. Control tires are what they are, and they either won't work for everyone the same, or the teams need to do some development in order to make best use of them. Control tires are a fact of World Championship racing, period. The good teams will be able to make the best use of whatever tire the series provides.
Really? Guess we will see in 2016!!! I bet the tide turns red.
Yes, you are correct about one thing, Michelin is my personal preference, has been since the 1970s. Hell, you prolly know one of my best frenz, Wally Schaefer, a long time BibbMan. Also a very good fly fisherman.
 
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