[AK_stealth]

When can you start comparing 93 to the best? When can the conversation begin about him being the best to ever do it? My GP history is not strong enough to weigh in but, I would like to know from the group what you all think...who's the greatest and is 93 far off? Thanks!
"Midnight"

 

[tye1138]

Agostini holds almost all the records and will continue to do so forever because he raced two classes (350/500) at the same time, winning both championships from 1968 - 1972 and has a hand-full of other championships prior and post his domination. So thats 4 years of utter domination and 11 more championships, with a combination of 15 titles to his name. Nobody will ever beat his records, its actually impossible in todays world.

Marc's 10 in a row MATCHES Ago's record. However, to really put that record away and behind him, Marc will need to win one more. Mick Doohan's 12 race wins in the 97' season, is the only other record he'd need to break in terms of seasonal race wins. In terms of championships, Ago has 8 premiere class 500cc championships to his name. I don't see that record being matched or broken because the level of competition is a lot higher, technology is constantly in flux (may have a bogus bike for a few years) and the bikes are a lot faster. As a consequence, you simply burn out quicker and your days of being the top dog can end in a heart beat through a simple accident at an older age. Back in the day, the speeds were a lot slower, but the gear was almost nonexistent. So if you were smooth and capable of keeping it on two wheels, it was pretty easy to win. Even the all-mighty Ago retired from injury. It just happened to him 12 years after he started.

Its amazing to note, I'm pretty sure Loris Capirossi holds the record of longest time racing in the series. He raced for 21 years before retiring at the end of 2011. The current old-hat Valentino Rossi, has only been in the series for 18 years. There maybe someone else who's raced longer, but Capirossi most likely has better stats anyway.

As a reference, Marc's been only at it for 7 years, with 3 championships and maybe a 4th this year.

 

[cbr6]

Rossi 7 top class championships, Dohann 5 500 championships in a row after his huge injury, Eddie Lawson 4 500 championships, Wayne Rainey 3 500 championships. Marquez is really good just need to see how the career plays out.

 

[rubbish]

I agree with Tye in regards to Agostini's records. Times change, rules change, etc....in today's racing business, I'd say it's pretty damn impossible for anyone to beat those stats. But they're just stats...that doesn't mean that Agostini was really better than the greats of today, like Marquez or Rossi. Nowadays there are other things that in my opinion make some great...special....obviously championship wins are a requirements, but various other things make riders among the greats. Such as Stoner for example...doesn't have all the stats that Rossi or others do, but he won MotoGP twice, first time being on a Ducati AND in only his 2nd year in MotoGP. He also used to win races by a mile, leaving everyone in the dust.

What makes Marquez great are several things (so far)...Estoril 2010, Motegi 2012, Valencia 2012, winning MotoGP in his 1st year, being on the podium in every race he finished, and of course, winning every race so far this year....oh and the fact he's 21 only!!

 

[pat1098]

Yes unfortunately it's all about the context they competed in.

Many have been 'head and shoulders above' their competition, and that list could include many riders.

From names like Duke, Hailwood and Co. from the '50s and '60s, to Agostini, Sheene and Roberts in the '70s, Spencer in the '80s, Doohan in the '90s etc.

So it will never be possible to draw those direct comparisons between the different eras, and I'm sure Marquez is aware of that. But he is clearly on a higher level than his competitors in the current context.

But other achievements feed into what constitutes greatness in this sport. Things like riding in more than one class in the same year, like Ago in the '70s or Spencer in the mid-'80s. Or in different categories, like Bayliss and Biaggi, whose achievements spanned both GP and WSBK.

Or beating the competition when you didn't necessarily have the best equipment - something Marquez is (arguably) yet to achieve.

So Marquez has some other areas where he might establish his prevalence in the future. But in the meantime, let's enjoy the show.

But I'm afraid the title of GOAT (greatest of all time) is a difficult one to pin down, as the sport changes through different eras.

Rossi still thinks he is the GOAT, and is riding like he wants to prove that, but it's hard when the young feller is pissing off on him like he is!

At least the Yamaha appeared to be closer to the Honda's performance at Indy, which augurs well for the rest of the season.

 

[tye1138]

Yep, I agree with you guys straight up. You can't take the records out of context. Ago didn't go to racing school, he wasn't groomed from childhood to be a racer either. He simply was a good rider, figured his shit out and got sponsored by MV Agusta, who had the best bike on the grid. The current all-Spanish MotoGP series, has riders who've been trained as children to be stronger AND more talented then anyone has seen. They've also had the best rides since joining the series, with Marquez being the luckiest of them all, KTM in 125, Honda factory in Moto2 and Honda factory in MotoGP. So its not JUST talent, its being brought up with the best and then having the talent to make use of it.

In Ago's day, you'd show up and go race. Today, if you aren't groomed for it, practically from birth, you're a nobody and thats the real separating factor when you look at older records and try to compare them to today.

 

[Maxsam]

My 0.02c...When you factor in the many variables in each era its hard to say whether the dominant rider of era "x" is better than the dominant rider of era "y" etc. And whilst technology makes it hard to compare, so too does the level of competition around during each period. Would Rossi have dominated and won like he has if he had Marquez during his heyday? Would Rossi have won in the Doohan era?

I always like to hear who the riders think was the best in their era, and what always strikes me regularly, is that many say the best that they ever rode against etc, was not the champion of their era but rider "x". Often they were never in a team or on machinery that could compete. Ago's bikes were head and shoulders above the rest. Would he have been as dominant on less (but equal) machinery.

Ranking riders based on "dominance of their era" will give you the rider with most wins. The best rider (who in some cases may not have stayed around, or may have even been on sub standard machinery) could be someone else.

Some US riders say that Mamola was a better rider then Spencer, but Spencer was better at winning. Some of the older yanks may have an opinion on this.

And interestingly Roberts (and others) regularly proclaim that Hansford was far better than any of them, yet the results point to Roberts 4-0.

The question then....who was and is the best rider, rather than who has won the most. Is it a rider than won by huge or easy margins over riders that won with on better bikes.

I think the machinery bias in the pre 70's was far far greater then we have seen in past 40 years.

 

[rubbish]

In Ago's day, you'd show up and go race. Today, if you aren't groomed for it, practically from birth, you're a nobody and thats the real separating factor when you look at older records and try to compare them to today.

Yep, in our age, Biaggi comes to mind as the only exception. I believe he started racing motorcycles at a much older age (relatively)...something like late teens, and then we went on to race until he was 41 and won 2 WSBK titles at age 39 and 41 if I remember well...maybe it was 38 and 40, whatever....close enough!

 

[tye1138]

Yep, in our age, Biaggi comes to mind as the only exception. I believe he started racing motorcycles at a much older age (relatively)...something like late teens, and then we went on to race until he was 41 and won 2 WSBK titles at age 39 and 41 if I remember well...maybe it was 38 and 40, whatever....close enough!

He got VERY close. If it wasn't for a young, eager Rossi, he would have won AT LEAST one MotoGP championship, maybe two. Rossi spoiled Biaggi's career and rightly so, Rossi was a better rider.

 

[Andrew848]

Of course it's too soon to call him the best. Kinda like how they call Lebron 'the king'....please.

It certainly looks as if Marquez has the potential to do it. Just way too soon to tell. Anything can happen.

 

[freighttrain]

I have always preferred the term..

GOTE..

Greatest of their Era...

Though, I will give credit to Marc for the way that he goes about his business. He seems to enjoy the hell out of what he does, but I just love the humble attitude that he has when a Mic. is in his face..

Smiles..
Compliments the others..
Stays "quiet"..

Watching him race is also fantastic... But I also enjoyed watching a lot of the greats from the past as well.
See how Marc's future unwraps, but he sure is making it exciting.

Wasn't long ago that many were soured about MotoGP..
Looking towards WSBK for the racing..

Take a look now? The kid has been great for the sport, and has. My support.. Big time..

 

[rubbish]

^agreed!

 

[MotoDuc]

Although I agree with everyone's rationale, I can't help feeling that Marquez is the best of all time for multiple reasons... Each era had its best bikes in terms of performance and the fact that Marquez seems to defy physics while riding a 250+hp motorcycle is what really amazes me. He's brought a new level of riding technique to the table and until people learn it or come up with an even better technique, Marquez will be winning... He's mastered bike control! Being able to slide the bike so much while maintaining your tires seems to be his trick. Never mind the fact that like Schumacher could in F1, Marquez can turn up the speed as needed.

 

[Jaffa]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought we would be talking about Zoot.:lovebirds:

Oh well! carry on!

 

[NoTec]

Marquez is the new Stoner. Watching the kid live is nothing short of amazing. We have seen his true speed only on a few occasions. Valencia 2012 for instance. At that point, I knew that everyone in the premier class was in trouble.

Can't call him the best ever as it's still very early. But I do believe he was the best last year as well as this year. He is also safely getting faster.

 

[219R]

Marquez is the new Stoner. Watching the kid live is nothing short of amazing. We have seen his true speed only on a few occasions. Valencia 2012 for instance. At that point, I knew that everyone in the premier class was in trouble.

Can't call him the best ever as it's still very early. But I do believe he was the best last year as well as this year. He is also safely getting faster.

Watch out!!... I got "Banned" (...the first time!) for sayin that Marquez was "getting faster"!!!

 

[NoTec]

Let's not talk about banning and forget the drama of the past. Let's move on. I've learned to ignore people, so I believ we all can. Glad to see you are back Bob. I hope it stays that way.

Marc most certainly has lots of speed in reserve, but it's like he is allowing himself to use more of it in small increments as he learns and trusts the bike more. I still have the video in my head of him backing it into turn 1 at Indi. To see the kid do it in a field where everyone else has their wheels in line.... He's really having fun out there.

 

[219R]

Sage advice... Thanks for the Welcome.

 

[phillthy]

He is faster, but he has not been injured bad as yet.

 

[NoTec]

How long did it take Rossi to suffer serious injury? Or Casey?