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Discussion Starter #1
Has anybody in the uk got any aftermarket exhausts on their bike other than Termis?
I asked my dealer about it today and they want £1100(£1400 without offer) for the Termi slipons fitted.
I asked if a set of Arrows (£600) would void the warranty and he said yes and very rudely told me he wouldnt fit them even if it didnt. PLus he said even if they did fit them it would still cost around the same as Termis because of the set up time(5hrs).
Pissed off at this I call another dealer. He says they will fit the Arrows and cant see a prob with the warranty unless they directly affect the warranty part thats gone wrong in some way. He also offered me the Termis fitted for £850 fitted!!!
Can anyone explain this? Only thing i can think of is the salesman got greedy and tried conning me. not knowing im a regular on this site learning from others :) :yo: ANy one with similar experience?
Im even thinking of going to this other dealer just because they have better service and most importantly more honest!!!! Means i will get a bike 2-3 weeks later mind.
 

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Not sure about Arrows but my dealer said the Termis would NOT void my warranty. I went with Termis because you can take the baffles on and off with one screw. I should have the bike next weekend.
 

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Right now I have a 916 with FBF Forza slip-ons. Will this be about the same loudness as the full Termis with or without the baffles on the 1098?
 

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Its funny how people STILL question if an exhaust system will void the bikes warranty. The answer is NO! Well at least not here in the US. A law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss act prevents this from happening.

The Magnuson-Moss act states very simply, no manufacturer can deny you warranty coverage because you as a consumer have opted to change a part on your vehicle, for a part that was not made by the manufacturer. If they do deny you coverage, they must prove without a reason of doubt that the part you installed was the DIRECT cause of the problem in question.

Example: You install an Arrow exhaust sytem on your bike. A day later the bike begins to stall. Granted the exhaust was installed correctly (and not hanging by wire), the dealer can NOT deny you the fact he MUST service the bike. Upon servicing the bike, if he finds the ECU to be at fault. The dealer CAN NOT deny you the warranty work, because you have an aftermarket exhaust on your bike. If he does, he has to prove to you, without a doubt the exhaust is the cause of the problem.

Most aftermarket exhaust system are designed to increase flow, and run cooler than OEM systems. The ONLY way such a modification could harm the bike and potenially cause a waranty conflict is if they somehow BLOCKED exhaust flow or ran hotter causing "burn-in" problems. Last but not least, if they're installed wrong and fall off durring a ride, causing damage to something else on the bike, well that's something that wouldn't be covered for obvious reasons as well.

With any aftermarket part or mod, you have to ask yourself, what are the pros and cons. The exhaust swap is one with very little risk and one that generally wont effect the operations of the engine. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the least problem some or “warranty concerning” should you have any, and 10 being the most (dealer red flag), the exhaust swap is a 1.

If the dealers says you can install one aftermarket brand vs another because that's what the manufacturer recommends / supports / or sponsors is AGAINST US LAW! Although it is said quite often, and many dealers will swear by it, the law says otherwise.
 

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ducatijon said:
Has anybody in the uk got any aftermarket exhausts on their bike other than Termis?
I asked my dealer about it today and they want £1100(£1400 without offer) for the Termi slipons fitted.
I asked if a set of Arrows (£600) would void the warranty and he said yes and very rudely told me he wouldnt fit them even if it didnt. PLus he said even if they did fit them it would still cost around the same as Termis because of the set up time(5hrs).
Pissed off at this I call another dealer. He says they will fit the Arrows and cant see a prob with the warranty unless they directly affect the warranty part thats gone wrong in some way. He also offered me the Termis fitted for £850 fitted!!!
Can anyone explain this? Only thing i can think of is the salesman got greedy and tried conning me. not knowing im a regular on this site learning from others :) :yo: ANy one with similar experience?
Im even thinking of going to this other dealer just because they have better service and most importantly more honest!!!! Means i will get a bike 2-3 weeks later mind.
Mate, I had mine fitted in by my dealer for £870 so I can only think that the salesman is trying to bend you over on the price. I'd sack the greedy b'stard off and go with another dealer.
 

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ducatijon said:
Has anybody in the uk got any aftermarket exhausts on their bike other than Termis?
I asked my dealer about it today and they want £1100(£1400 without offer) for the Termi slipons fitted.
I asked if a set of Arrows (£600) would void the warranty and he said yes and very rudely told me he wouldnt fit them even if it didnt. PLus he said even if they did fit them it would still cost around the same as Termis because of the set up time(5hrs).
Pissed off at this I call another dealer. He says they will fit the Arrows and cant see a prob with the warranty unless they directly affect the warranty part thats gone wrong in some way. He also offered me the Termis fitted for £850 fitted!!!
Can anyone explain this? Only thing i can think of is the salesman got greedy and tried conning me. not knowing im a regular on this site learning from others :) :yo: ANy one with similar experience?
Im even thinking of going to this other dealer just because they have better service and most importantly more honest!!!! Means i will get a bike 2-3 weeks later mind.
Ever considered that the saleman got it wrong, the world is far from perfect and everybody makes mistakes. For the 1098 there is a choice of Carbon slip-ons, Ti slip-ons and full system, the later of which does take 4-5 to fit and set-up.
 

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Those Arrows take a whopping 10 mins to install. Two screws and two springs. It's not rocket science. Trust me I did the install myself and I'm not a pro wrencher.

You might have to have your dealer reset your tps at your first service, if and I repeat if you have a stalling issue at idle after fitting the Arrows.
 

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DucatiGuy said:
Its funny how people STILL question if an exhaust system will void the bikes warranty. The answer is NO! Well at least not here in the US. A law passed in 1975 called the Magnuson-Moss act prevents this from happening.

The Magnuson-Moss act states very simply, no manufacturer can deny you warranty coverage because you as a consumer have opted to change a part on your vehicle, for a part that was not made by the manufacturer. If they do deny you coverage, they must prove without a reason of doubt that the part you installed was the DIRECT cause of the problem in question.

Example: You install an Arrow exhaust sytem on your bike. A day later the bike begins to stall. Granted the exhaust was installed correctly (and not hanging by wire), the dealer can NOT deny you the fact he MUST service the bike. Upon servicing the bike, if he finds the ECU to be at fault. The dealer CAN NOT deny you the warranty work, because you have an aftermarket exhaust on your bike. If he does, he has to prove to you, without a doubt the exhaust is the cause of the problem.

Most aftermarket exhaust system are designed to increase flow, and run cooler than OEM systems. The ONLY way such a modification could harm the bike and potenially cause a waranty conflict is if they somehow BLOCKED exhaust flow or ran hotter causing "burn-in" problems. Last but not least, if they're installed wrong and fall off durring a ride, causing damage to something else on the bike, well that's something that wouldn't be covered for obvious reasons as well.

With any aftermarket part or mod, you have to ask yourself, what are the pros and cons. The exhaust swap is one with very little risk and one that generally wont effect the operations of the engine. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the least problem some or “warranty concerning” should you have any, and 10 being the most (dealer red flag), the exhaust swap is a 1.

If the dealers says you can install one aftermarket brand vs another because that's what the manufacturer recommends / supports / or sponsors is AGAINST US LAW! Although it is said quite often, and many dealers will swear by it, the law says otherwise.

I also continue to be stunned that people, whether they know of the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act or not, cannot seem to sense the lack of basic sommon sense in the statements made by unscrupulous dealers. Run away from a dealer like that as fast as possible. Any extra cost or extra travel time to get to an honest dealer is fairly insignificant compared to the hosing you will continue to get from these jackasses.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Tricolore said:
Ever considered that the saleman got it wrong, the world is far from perfect and everybody makes mistakes. For the 1098 there is a choice of Carbon slip-ons, Ti slip-ons and full system, the later of which does take 4-5 to fit and set-up.
I did make it clear i just wanted the slipons... full system would be of no benefit for me... i just want the sound. I have a 916 senna which im keeping and i run straight through 50mm Vance and Hines SS on with no probs. Sound gorgeous so want something to match with the 1098.
I think i am gonna go with the second dealer as they will do me the Termis for 850 fitted which is reasonable. But your right, they are trying to bend me over.
Other dealer says they will do me deals on other accessories aswell after i pushed for a deal on everything. I made it clear i was a cash buyer, ie no part ex for them to have to sell etc and i would be buying extras, all in all 13k or so in cash. They couldnt move on the bike as expected but said they would work with me on extras. Cant complain, was expecting 900 for Termis anyhow.
 

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I got termi end cans from Italia Moto in Lincoln when I bought the bike , he did them for £760 fitted , sounds like you are being done , dealers like that dont deserve our trade tell him to bollocks, good luck
 

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flymo1098 said:
I got termi end cans from Italia Moto in Lincoln when I bought the bike , he did them for £760 fitted , sounds like you are being done , dealers like that dont deserve our trade tell him to bollocks, good luck
Surely dealers have the right to charge RRP and even charge for the time spent fitting parts. Ever considered that YOU might have got a good deal at your delaer's. Just because dealers don't all do super deals, that's no reason to have a go at them, all customers have a right to chose where they shop, and if they don't like the deal being offered they can go somewhere else.......that's what make a free market economy.
 

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Tricolore said:
Surely dealers have the right to charge RRP and even charge for the time spent fitting parts. Ever considered that YOU might have got a good deal at your delaer's. Just because dealers don't all do super deals, that's no reason to have a go at them, all customers have a right to chose where they shop, and if they don't like the deal being offered they can go somewhere else.......that's what make a free market economy.
yes you are correct , BUT £1400 for the slip ons fitted is a little over the RRP dont you think,
they know they are on back order everywhere so they are trying it on in my opinion
 

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Just thought I would throw this in for all you Magnusson-Moss Act fans.
If installation of an aftermarket part makes your bike ILLEGAL to operate on the road - ie. install of a 'Race Only' pipe in California - then the Act does NOT apply.

Also, for anyone that has not read the Act, the manufacturer CAN void your warranty, if the warranty expressly states that installation of an aftermarket exhaust will void the warranty.

Personally, I have not read the Ducati Written Warranty, so I can't specifically comment on Ducatis.

Since there seem to be a lot of Non-Lawyers out there giving advice, I wanted to clarify the Act.
 

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Burden of Proof

DucatiGuy said:
If they do deny you coverage, they must prove without a reason of doubt that the part you installed was the DIRECT cause of the problem in question. The dealer CAN NOT deny you the warranty work because you have an aftermarket exhaust on your bike. If he does, he has to prove to you, without a doubt, the exhaust is the cause of the problem.
DucatiGuy,

While your discussion of the Magnuson-Moss Act is basically accurate, allow me to add something to the discussion:

Warranty disputes are litigated in civil court. The issue is breach of contract. If the seller refuses to honor a warranty claim and the buyer believes the seller is contractually obligated to honor the warranty, then the buyer's recourse is to sue the seller in civil court for breach of the warranty contract.

In such a cause of action, the buyer would be the moving party, (Plaintiff), and the seller would be the Defendant. This being a civil cause of action alleging breach of contract, the burden of proof would not be, (as you cited in your post), "without a [reason of] doubt," but rather, "by a preponderance of the evidence." Put in layman's terms, a preponderance of the evidence is defined as, "more likely than not," or alternately, "more than 50%," (sometimes referred to as, "51%").

BTW, the burden you cited, "without a [reason of] doubt," exists nowhere in American Jurisprudence. The highest burden of proof required in our legal system is "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt." "Beyond a reasonable doubt," is explicitly defined to the jury as not being synonymous with "beyond all doubt", or to use your language, "without a [reason of] doubt." This highest burden that a fact in question be proven, "beyond a reasonable doubt," is reserved exclusively for criminal proceedings and is never required in a breach of warranty claim.

As the moving party, the burden would initially fall on the buyer to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that there was in fact a valid warranty contract covering the motorcycle.

Then, depending on the jurisdiction the law suit was filed in and the particulars of a given trial/judge, either the Plaintiff/buyer would then have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the modification he made to the motorcycle was not the proximate cause of the malfunction/defect in question, or conversely, the burden would then switch to the Defendant/seller, who would have to affirmatively prove by a preponderance of the evidence that Plaintiff's modification was the proximate cause of the malfunction/defect. In cases where the burden of proof shifts to the Defendant/seller to affirmatively prove by a preponderance of the evidence that Plaintiff/seller's modification proximately caused the malfunction/defect, Defendant is not required to prove anything to the Plaintiff/buyer, but rather, to the finder of fact, (either the Judge or the Jury).

Finally, it's important to understand that neither the Magnuson-Moss Act nor the common law dealing with breach of warranty claims establish a bright-line test. A buyer is not free to make any and all modifications he wants without fear of voiding the warranty. Some modifications, (supercharging and turbocharging, for example), almost certainly void a warranty. Other modifications, (like properly installed aftermarket cans, for example), probably don't void a warranty. Still other modifications, (more radical cams and/or port work, for example), fall somewhere in the middle. Each case is judged on its merits. It does the readers a disservice to suggest that because of the Magnuson-Moss Act, aftermarket exhausts can be installed without fear of voiding the warranty. It's not that clear-cut or simple. The law never is.

A warranty hassle is just that: a hassle. If the dealer won't honor your warranty because you've installed aftermarket pipes, you're in for a fight. It's not just a simple matter of waiving the Magnuson-Moss Act in the dealer's face and then watching the dealer roll over and say, "You're right, my bad! Thanks for enlightening me. Let me now fix your bike!"

If you're going to modify you're bike with aftermarket products, proceed with caution. The safest course is to have your dealer install them. It will be presumed that dealer-installed aftermarket products do not void the warranty unless the dealer explicitly stated otherwise prior to installation. If you install them yourself or have a non-dealer mechanic install them, document the work carefully. That way, if there's an issue later on, you're more apt to prove your modification wasn't the proximate cause of the malfunction/defect in question.

Of course, if you go with termis, this will likely be a non-issue.

Elton
 
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