[StevenAthas]

So I understand that whole concept of trail braking and slowly releasing the brakes as your lean angle increases but I'm wonder how far anyone has pushed this without tucking the front.

I have always scrubbed off my speed before the turn and I have been experimenting with trail braking a lot as of recent.

I honestly do not feel comfortable AT ALL with braking into the turn or even starting to lean and wanted to get your opinions on what lean angle you're at while still on the brakes.

I was on the 405 exiting the Wilshire off ramp on Wednesday and figured I'd give it a go because I knew my tires were nice and warm after riding on the freeway for 45 mins on a 70 degree day. It didn't feel too bad but I wasn't leaned over very much when I released the brake entirely (slowly trailing).

Are you guys comfortable braking into a turn?

What lean angle can you hold while on the brakes? (obviously depends on entry speed, but figure a slightly technical turn, somewhat low speed)

I've lowsided before when my front tire washed out after hitting some gravel so that could be my issue (residual fear) but I'm not sure if it's all in my head or a rear concern.

is there an ideal body position I should be in while doing this?

I just always have the feeling like my front tire is going to give.

BTW, I have some pretty sh*tty tires on her right now (Continental Conti-Motion set).

 

[Tuned]

On the street, I wouldn't experiment because the contact patch is pretty small using standard street tires and normal street pressures. I always mounted softer compound hyper sport tires to my street bikes to aid in feel and most importantly, so they heat up quick and retain heat. Needless to say, lean angles on the street riding around town are going to be greatly reduced then those at high speeds in the canyons or track. If you've got good hyper sport tires, lower pressures and can keep them hot, nothing prevents you from leaning it over as if you were on a race track. However, those things are the key to being successful and if you don't have your ducks in a row, it can be very dangerous to experiment.

Trail braking on the street vs track is totally different.

On the street, you may start the corner with the brake on a tiny bit, but you're off it and back on the throttle quickly. It's FAR better to do your breaking upright, then it is to even attempt to lean over, due to the reasons above AND of course, unexpected surface OR traffic conditions which could leave you yanking the brakes hard to slow down that extra bit. I have tried to use my trail braking skills on the street and always felt the risks outweighed the rewards.

On the track, mostly all of your braking is done upright, but there is still some slowing to the apex in most cases. You're "driving" straight for the apex, releasing the brake at the apex and getting back on the throttle. Dragging the front brakes during the transition from brake to throttle for a split second, helps keep the front wheel from loosing grip and also, dragging the rear brake can assist in helping reduce the harshness of power to the rear wheel on exit.

Honestly, of all the skills you learn, trail braking may be one of the hardest to master. It requires substantial faith in the front end, which is something all tarmac riders fear loosing. Quick/tight tracks like streets of willow are all about trail braking, carrying momentum and exit speed. Keith Code designed the track for his courses and it's been a staple of So Cal riding/racing ever since. If you take his course, you will learn the basics. It's all about feel and translating what you feel into actions. This isn't a simple answer unfortunately, it's something you need to feel for yourself because unlike many things related to this sport, trail braking and lean angle are all situation based. Plus, anyone can open the throttle and steer with the rear… not very many people can trail brake and in my view, the fastest guys in the world, are those who can do that skill perfectly.

 

[219R]

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Really?

 

[Abby normal]

He's a legend in his own mind.

 

[WERA689]

He also happens to be correct. Other than "race tires on the street" that is.

 

[Proctologist]

opcorn:

 

[Shrek]

Bob have you posted anything but denigrating remarks in the past 3 months? Anything useful or is everything just to belittle Tye?

If you are tired of Tye I am sure there are a few tired of your tactics as well...

Swings and roundabouts.

 

[ASM]

Trail braking is usually considered an advanced technique that takes time and practice to master. While I agree that it certainly involves some basic understanding on motorcycle physics, tire contact patch, lean angle etc. I don't necessarily agree that it should only be treated as an advanced technique and is only relevant at the track. Having said that, there certainly is a difference in applying the technique on the street versus the track. And I certainly don't imply that you should start trail breaking right out of the MSF course.

On a race track you always are looking for the fastest way through a corner. And every corner has a slowest point...so you always try to arrive at that point with a speed as close to the perfect one (the one the chassis can handle) as possible. The concept of trail breaking essentially allows that - scrubbing off additional speed while continuously leaning into the corner, trading brake force with lean angle. In addition, trail braking allows you to improve the bike's geometry allowing it to turn better. Rake and trail is affected when brake pressure is applied due to the collapsed front forks which allows the bike to turn in easier and faster. It also increases the contact patch of your front tire.

Since a lot of factors play a role in trail braking, there is no definitive answer as to what lean angle you can carry while trail braking; it simply depends on too many variables such as the tire compound, tire pressure, tire temperature, suspension, your body position, your current lean angle and so on. Same applies to body position...there is no specific body position for trail braking, obviously the more you are off the bike, the less lean angle you carry and hence you can apply more braking force.

Now...coming back to the street. As was mentioned before, trail braking on the street is different from trail braking at the track. On the street, getting through a corner the fastest is not (or should not be) the main reason for trail braking. But the basic benefits (improved geometry, larger contact patch etc.) are still valid, especially if you consider the unexpected things. Racetracks usually don't have gravel, diesel, dirt, cars cutting corners and many other things you experience on the road. And on the street, trail braking allows you to deal with these unexpected things better. If you get your braking done before turning into the corner, it is much harder to smoothly reapply some braking force the second you spot the gravel in the middle of the corner. Now...if you trail braked into the same corner, your front is already loaded, your brakes are already touching the discs and hence you are in a better position to deal with whatever is thrown your way. Obviously, you still need to be smooth and not grab a handful or the outcome is pretty much the same as with no trail braking.

 

[219R]

He also happens to be correct. Other than "race tires on the street" that is.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

of course!!!....just sayin.....::... except for......


..

 

[[email protected]]

Tires don't really heat up much just driving on them. They require friction from cornering to heat up. To be honest......I don't think I'd practice finding out how much front brake one can use in a corner on the street. Scrub off the speed you need to before entering the corner.

Trail braking is a bit of an advanced technique and one should be able to slide a bike around before trying it out. When you can slide both ends at the same time going through a corner without craping your suit.....trail braking is next to learn.

 

[219R]

Bob have you posted anything but denigrating remarks in the past 3 months? Anything useful or is everything just to belittle Tye?

If you are tired of Tye I am sure there are a few tired of your tactics as well...

Swings and roundabouts.[/QUOTE


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

yes.

 

[WERA689]

Then how about giving it a rest? Particularly when Tye is right. It does happen, whether you approve or not. He's right about trail braking.

 

[219R]

Then how about giving it a rest? Particularly when Tye is right. It does happen, whether you approve or not. He's right about trail braking.

Fuck you..Neal....you have made your bed...lay in it...you are enabling a sick ass prick..... just sayin...:shrug:

 

[WERA689]

Yes, I have. And my patience with you is thinning by the moment. How I decide to address the matter depends entirely on your next move.

Oh, and it's Neil.

 

[Tuned]

When you can slide both ends at the same time going through a corner without craping your suit.....trail braking is next to learn.

Yes Sir!

It's one benefit of riding other disciplines like; flat track, motocross/off-road or even supermoto. When you can experiment in environments where the risk is minimal, it's a lot easier to build these skills and then slowly apply them to your chosen discipline.

 

[WERA689]

Actually, fuckit. One month off, missing pre-season testing it is.

 

[ChrisE]

You can trail brake right up to the apex, knee on the ground.

I'm sure there are better videos, but here's a little segment from one of my track days. My GoPro got tipped forward, but it shows when I release the brake and get back on the gas in several corners.

Here I got a bit close, totally my fault, but it results in me having to brake harder than I would have liked to avoid a collision. The rider in front has no idea I'm there.

 

[rubbish]

The magic number is 42 degrees. Brake past that, and you crash right away! ....I'm just kidding, there is no magic number. I don't have much to add to the posts above. Others have done a great job at explaining and advising. I'll just post up this video of me FAILING at trail-braking....wasn't even full lean actually. Oh and if you watch MotoGP, especially the slow motion footage of riders going through corners, you'll see that they're still braking well past the point of touching down with their knees....some are pretty close to dragging elbows while still trail-braking! It's possible...but I don't suggest you try that at home

 

[rubbish]

Bob have you posted anything but denigrating remarks in the past 3 months? Anything useful?

Have you??...in the last 2 years or so?? :stickpoke


Bob banned? Pity...but not too worried. Surely Neil and him have made private arrangements so he can come back tomorrow with a new username, and all will be the same, right?

 

[StevenAthas]

Damn... Went to the gym and craziness ensued, eh?

LOL looks like this thread lowsided..