Ducati.org forum banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
T--Watching this reminded me that my first track day this year is about 6 weeks away!

Don't even consider the fact that you're being watched... the instructor will have plenty of time after the session to provide feedback. Focus on your lines, braking and acceleration points--and apply any constructive feedback provided at your own pace. In essence, in reverse order from the way you're doing it now, 'forget about being watched and focus on the basics.'
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
Yea, I would agree with the instructor, line choice wasn't exactly optimal there. LOL :)

Most people get nervous when being "tested" so it does make sense.

One trick which is critical is to find good reference points for; breaking, corner turn in, apex and exit. Getting reference points from a faster rider, potentially your instructor, will help you learn where the proper points are. Once you know the ref points, it's a lot easier to simply connect the dots. A potential symptom of running wide is not looking through the corner and not having correct reference points.

I think this video is a good example of this problem and it's a common issue. You were going wide, most likely because you weren't comfortable leaning the bike at that speed. So you didn't hang off, you stayed on the bike and let it go wide. Knowing how much speed you can carry into a corner is one of the hardest parts of tarmac riding. This is where the reference points come into play.

So yea, work more with the instructor and discuss reference points in future seasons.

Just my .02 cents. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,652 Posts
One trick which is critical is to find good reference points for; breaking, corner turn in, apex and exit. Getting reference points from a faster rider, potentially your instructor, will help you learn where the proper points are. Once you know the ref points, it's a lot easier to simply connect the dots. A potential symptom of running wide is not looking through the corner and not having correct reference points.
While consciously finding reference points is more important the more your speed increases (when you start riding, you kinda intuitively pick them), I actually would take the above advice very carefully. Getting a general insight of what the faster rider uses is helpful to provide somewhat of an area where to look for reference points but there are simply too many variables coming into play: he has more speed (or less), he may brake harder (or trail-brake deeper), his BP allows him to go faster through the corner etc. to simply re-use his points. You simply don't just want to use the same reference points and then suddenly realize you are coming in way too hot which usually results in people panicking and making matters much worse.

Understand the concept of reference points but focus more on the line a specific corner takes. The reference points change depending on the speed you are going (as well as the line). Slow down and work on one corner, getting braking, turn-in, and exit as consistent lap after lap. Once you have this corner down, you can add speed. Move your brake marker further upstream (error on the safe side and move it further than you think originally) and try again. Then essentially fine-tune your points...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
Actually "fixed" reference points are used by mostly all trainers in tarmac or dirt riding for any level of rider. Most schools/classes will set cones up on the outside and inside of the track, which are used as reference points.

The reason why using a faster guys reference points work is to push the rider. You start by simply riding the track slow, hitting those marks. It feels horrible because the line through most corners will be straight and you'll be going slow. Eventually you start to pickup speed and you start to form the "arc".

If you practice the right lines, the "fast" lines, even if you're going slow, you will memorize them very quickly. Knowledge is power and without that, by the rider simply making their own "slow" lines, it's nearly impossible to shift those slower lines to "quicker" lines. The rider will be stuck using those slower lines forever, unless someone points out the fast lines.

Skipping the years of riding slow lines and immediately learning the quicker lines (not talking Marc Marquez line's, just someone who has a decent pace) will dramatically increase your speed on the track. This is how MOST schools teach you how to ride. There are no "slow" lines or reference points, everyone uses the same "PROPER" line AND the "correct" reference points.

I guess you can take the slow road like I did and spend a year figuring out what someone could have told you in a 5 minute conversation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,652 Posts
Actually "fixed" reference points are used by mostly all trainers in tarmac or dirt riding for any level of rider. Most schools/classes will set cones up on the outside and inside of the track, which are used as reference points.

The reason why using a faster guys reference points work is to push the rider. You start by simply riding the track slow, hitting those marks. It feels horrible because the line through most corners will be straight and you'll be going slow. Eventually you start to pickup speed and you start to form the "arc".

If you practice the right lines, the "fast" lines, even if you're going slow, you will memorize them very quickly. Knowledge is power and without that, by the rider simply making their own "slow" lines, it's nearly impossible to shift those slower lines to "quicker" lines. The rider will be stuck using those slower lines forever, unless someone points out the fast lines.

Skipping the years of riding slow lines and immediately learning the quicker lines (not talking Marc Marquez line's, just someone who has a decent pace) will dramatically increase your speed on the track. This is how MOST schools teach you how to ride. There are no "slow" lines or reference points, everyone uses the same "PROPER" line AND the "correct" reference points.

I guess you can take the slow road like I did and spend a year figuring out what someone could have told you in a 5 minute conversation.
Reference points are always fixed for a particular rider and speed...that's why they are called reference points. But there certainly is no "correct" reference point that is the same for everyone. If you want to square off a corner, you certainly use a different reference point for turn in than you would for a sweeping line. And reference points simply change if your capabilities change (speed, lean angle, approach etc.).

And if you want to push yourself, you move your own reference points...e.g. brake 10 feet later while using the same speed and the same line through the corner (if your exercise is to break harder). Taking your words, you could simply try Marquez's reference points next time in order to push yourself to Marquez's level....let me know how that works out for you.

And no, just because you are riding at a lesser pace, you don't have to learn what you call slower lines (whatever that is). Most people refer to the race line as being the "correct" line through a specific corner, but if you are riding at a slower pace, you simply cannot use the race line to its full potential....and forcing people to use it isn't beneficial at all. Perfect example is corner exit...the race line usually brings you out to the opposite side of the track, however, if you are not carrying the corner speed yet, you simply will not get to the opposite side - unless you physically steer to get there...and that is exactly the wrong thing to do. As your speed increases, the bike will automatically drift further towards the outside.

And I actually encourage people to try different lines through a corner, especially if they look into racing. You would be surprised how many people you can easily overtake by simply using the tighter inside line...especially those people who are die-hard race lines fans. There are many schools who focus only on the race line but with anything in life, it is not black or white...or otherwise everybody in MotoGP would be able to ride like Marquez...all they have to do is to use his "correct" reference points...right?

Anyway, I am not planning to get into endless discussions over this, I simply pointed out that the advice given needs to be treated carefully...and I provided the explanation as to why...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,127 Posts
Anyway, I am not planning to get into endless discussions over this, I simply pointed out that the advice given needs to be treated carefully...and I provided the explanation as to why...
You're right, I'm sorry for even trying to defend my opinion.

However, my opinion is based on techniques which have not only pushed my self to success, but many other riders I know and work with on a regular basis in multiple disciplines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
... if you want to push yourself, you move your own reference points...e.g. brake 10 feet later while using the same speed and the same line through the corner (if your exercise is to break harder).

... And I actually encourage people to try different lines through a corner, especially if they look into racing. You would be surprised how many people you can easily overtake by simply using the tighter inside line...
Great advice Andreas. Last year, I found myself exploring and experimenting with both of these on all of the tracks that I ride. I'm certain the plot will thicken this year as well (braking at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio is #1 on my list next month)!

The fun factor definitely rises when you find new successful clean ways to pass other riders. In my opinion, braking later, (when you're ready, T--), naturally progresses to passing on the inside line. So to Andreas' point, get comfortable with your basic riding skills, and then explore other lines and elements of the track. Just remember to go at your own pace; it's taken me several years to get to the level that I'm at now ('faster' intermediate track-day rider only--not a racer), and there's still plenty of room for growth.

It doesn't have to happen overnight!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,181 Posts
Great advice Andreas. Last year, I found myself exploring and experimenting with both of these on all of the tracks that I ride. I'm certain the plot will thicken this year as well (braking at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio is #1 on my list next month)!

The fun factor definitely rises when you find new successful clean ways to pass other riders. In my opinion, braking later, (when you're ready, T--), naturally progresses to passing on the inside line. So to Andreas' point, get comfortable with your basic riding skills, and then explore other lines and elements of the track. Just remember to go at your own pace; it's taken me several years to get to the level that I'm at now ('faster' intermediate track-day rider only--not a racer), and there's still plenty of room for growth.

It doesn't have to happen overnight!

Yes, but everyone please be careful trying to pass on the inside while braking late. Couple years ago I was at Laguna Seca in B group when this asshole thinks he's Rossi inside my line late in turn 5 (before the back uphill straight). He doesn't make it and runs wide nearly taking me out and I lose the front trying to avoid hitting him.

Remember these track days are for fun. Save your hero antics for either A group or race day. Or leave plenty of room. If the guy you're passing has already tipped into the turn and you're not past him, it's too late
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
I agree on all of the above. My goal is to always follow the organizer's rules (for safety), which for most Intermediate groups seems to be 'pass only if there are at least two-arm lengths between both bikes and NEVER pass on the inside of a rider who has already begun turning in...' Listen up in the riders meeting for these important details!

I do occasionally ride with the Advanced group and those rules obviously do not apply then.

+1 for leaving room for the really fast riders, too; I've been (pleasantly) surprised a few times and amazed at how fast some riders get around the track!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
460 Posts
Got to say, I definitely agree with setting your own reference points and slowly pushing those.
It has repeatedly been said at my trackday to not attempt to follow the really fast guys. You will most likely crash. The same applies to reference points.

They can brake much harder than you can. They have a much better understanding of the limit of traction during braking.
You do not. Try to hit the brakes at the same time they do and you will either run off track of tuck the front.

A slow steady approach is the key to learning to ride well especially considering we aren’t being paid to be out there!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
I find at towards the end of the day when I'm tired, I tend to be smoother and that's usally means I'm faster.

This was level two I picked this portion of the footage to show me at my worst. It helps remind me when I'm out there, I talk to my self light on the bars, look ahead, look for my reference etc..

I also understand as I ger better I need to adjust how I use the reference points.

On a slightly different note, tire/grip confidence.... Any tips on getting my head cleared on that?

What tires are you using? If you have any of the top tier street tires by the major brands you will have plenty of grip all the way into advanced if not further. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast! Be easy with the controls, and the speed will come.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top