Ducati.org forum banner
1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thinking of changing the filter to the KN race and wondering if I need an ECU remapping as KN recommends??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
A race K&N air filter will not flow air better than a clean Ducati stock air filter. If you remap the stock filter for performance you'll get the same final result as remaping the K&N.

It's unlikely that you'll find an aftermarket air filter that will flow air better than the stock filter. The problem is that the stock filter isn't a better filter than popular aftermarket systems.

An air filter is not motorcycle performance equipment, it is protective equipment. Its function is to prevent dirt from entering the engine and damaging it. Dirt, by nature, is very abrasive and gets caught between parts that require a precision fit to function correctly.

Any published air filter dyno curves are almost always stock filter/stock tune vs. aftermarket filter/remapped fueling, never stock filter/remapped fueling. So rarely do you see a straight A/B comparison.

So, where are the dyno charts from the manufacturers of the aftermarket air filters? If they really improve performance over stock filters across the RPM range then it’s really a marketing advantage to release their design development dyno charts. Without evidence to the contrary, think It’s safe to conclude that it is not to their advantage to release any dyno charts or comparisons with other vendors. The aftermarket air filter market for motorcycles seems to be built on hype by the manufacturers and by the profits to their sellers. They compete on hearsay and testimonies from “happy” customers or recommendations from their own vendors— not on proof of superior performance.

Some Final Words on Air Filters and Performance

An air filter that is selected for use on a race bike most often is not a good choice for use on a street bike. A race bike's function is to provide maximum performance and to finish (win) the race. Often the life of a factory racing team engine is practicing for, and finishing, one race. Then it's rebuilt to restore clearances by replacing any worn parts.

So, an air filter that is used on a race bike is selected using different priorities than one that is selected for use on a street bike. It primarily has to minimize any adverse effect on engine performance while still preventing the engine from ingesting dirt from a controlled racetrack environment. It has to capture and hold enough dirt without reducing intake air flow (clogging) to finish the race. It has to be accessible enough to be changed or cleaned quickly under racetrack conditions.

A street bike air filter, on the other hand, needs to function for thousands of miles in a variety of dusty conditions before cleaning or replacement. Consequently, it needs to hold a lot more dirt, and doesn't need to be nearly as accessible. Performance degradation is important but is still secondary to filter life.

The smaller the dirt particles captured by the filter, the better. Some designs and materials are better at this (filter efficiency) than others.

Whatever approach you or the filter manufacturer take, the underlying issue is that you need to CLEAN the filter before accumulated dirt reduces airflow sufficiently to reduce engine performance and economy.

So, in your case I'd suggest that you select the regular K&N replacement filter over the race filter version. It's a better filter for street use. Just keep it clean.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
A race K&N air filter will not flow air better than a clean Ducati stock air filter. If you remap the stock filter for performance you'll get the same final result as remaping the K&N.

It's unlikely that you'll find an aftermarket air filter that will flow air better than the stock filter. The problem is that the stock filter isn't a better filter than popular aftermarket systems.

An air filter is not motorcycle performance equipment, it is protective equipment. Its function is to prevent dirt from entering the engine and damaging it. Dirt, by nature, is very abrasive and gets caught between parts that require a precision fit to function correctly.

Any published air filter dyno curves are almost always stock filter/stock tune vs. aftermarket filter/remapped fueling, never stock filter/remapped fueling. So rarely do you see a straight A/B comparison.

So, where are the dyno charts from the manufacturers of the aftermarket air filters? If they really improve performance over stock filters across the RPM range then it’s really a marketing advantage to release their design development dyno charts. Without evidence to the contrary, think It’s safe to conclude that it is not to their advantage to release any dyno charts or comparisons with other vendors. The aftermarket air filter market for motorcycles seems to be built on hype by the manufacturers and by the profits to their sellers. They compete on hearsay and testimonies from “happy” customers or recommendations from their own vendors— not on proof of superior performance.

Some Final Words on Air Filters and Performance

An air filter that is selected for use on a race bike most often is not a good choice for use on a street bike. A race bike's function is to provide maximum performance and to finish (win) the race. Often the life of a factory racing team engine is practicing for, and finishing, one race. Then it's rebuilt to restore clearances by replacing any worn parts.

So, an air filter that is used on a race bike is selected using different priorities than one that is selected for use on a street bike. It primarily has to minimize any adverse effect on engine performance while still preventing the engine from ingesting dirt from a controlled racetrack environment. It has to capture and hold enough dirt without reducing intake air flow (clogging) to finish the race. It has to be accessible enough to be changed or cleaned quickly under racetrack conditions.

A street bike air filter, on the other hand, needs to function for thousands of miles in a variety of dusty conditions before cleaning or replacement. Consequently, it needs to hold a lot more dirt, and doesn't need to be nearly as accessible. Performance degradation is important but is still secondary to filter life.

The smaller the dirt particles captured by the filter, the better. Some designs and materials are better at this (filter efficiency) than others.

Whatever approach you or the filter manufacturer take, the underlying issue is that you need to CLEAN the filter before accumulated dirt reduces airflow sufficiently to reduce engine performance and economy.

So, in your case I'd suggest that you select the regular K&N replacement filter over the race filter version. It's a better filter for street use. Just keep it clean.
Ditto!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
A race K&N air filter will not flow air better than a clean Ducati stock air filter. If you remap the stock filter for performance you'll get the same final result as remaping the K&N.

It's unlikely that you'll find an aftermarket air filter that will flow air better than the stock filter. The problem is that the stock filter isn't a better filter than popular aftermarket systems.

An air filter is not motorcycle performance equipment, it is protective equipment. Its function is to prevent dirt from entering the engine and damaging it. Dirt, by nature, is very abrasive and gets caught between parts that require a precision fit to function correctly.

Any published air filter dyno curves are almost always stock filter/stock tune vs. aftermarket filter/remapped fueling, never stock filter/remapped fueling. So rarely do you see a straight A/B comparison.

So, where are the dyno charts from the manufacturers of the aftermarket air filters? If they really improve performance over stock filters across the RPM range then it’s really a marketing advantage to release their design development dyno charts. Without evidence to the contrary, think It’s safe to conclude that it is not to their advantage to release any dyno charts or comparisons with other vendors. The aftermarket air filter market for motorcycles seems to be built on hype by the manufacturers and by the profits to their sellers. They compete on hearsay and testimonies from “happy” customers or recommendations from their own vendors— not on proof of superior performance.

Some Final Words on Air Filters and Performance

An air filter that is selected for use on a race bike most often is not a good choice for use on a street bike. A race bike's function is to provide maximum performance and to finish (win) the race. Often the life of a factory racing team engine is practicing for, and finishing, one race. Then it's rebuilt to restore clearances by replacing any worn parts.

So, an air filter that is used on a race bike is selected using different priorities than one that is selected for use on a street bike. It primarily has to minimize any adverse effect on engine performance while still preventing the engine from ingesting dirt from a controlled racetrack environment. It has to capture and hold enough dirt without reducing intake air flow (clogging) to finish the race. It has to be accessible enough to be changed or cleaned quickly under racetrack conditions.

A street bike air filter, on the other hand, needs to function for thousands of miles in a variety of dusty conditions before cleaning or replacement. Consequently, it needs to hold a lot more dirt, and doesn't need to be nearly as accessible. Performance degradation is important but is still secondary to filter life.

The smaller the dirt particles captured by the filter, the better. Some designs and materials are better at this (filter efficiency) than others.

Whatever approach you or the filter manufacturer take, the underlying issue is that you need to CLEAN the filter before accumulated dirt reduces airflow sufficiently to reduce engine performance and economy.

So, in your case I'd suggest that you select the regular K&N replacement filter over the race filter version. It's a better filter for street use. Just keep it clean.
Thanks for the extensive explanation!! Everything sounds logical and makes sense to stick with the regular KN filter instead of the race.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Caveat . . . don't go crazy trying to keep your filter clean because the dirtier it is the finer the particles it filters. Obviously, there's a point of diminishing returns, but a filter does its worst work when brand new. There's advice out there that I follow: if you hold the filter up to the light and can't see the light, it's time to change or wash it. I don't wait until the mesh is opaque, just until the light is dim.
Also, in some locations bugs become an issue long before actual dirt.

Pilgrim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I spend my life tuning. There is no need to change your mapping for an airfilter change. This rumor is a carry over from carburetors which the air filter has a direct effect to the venturi. Changing your exhaust will have no effect, carb or injection. With the exhaust you get the benefit on the exhaust stroke. There is less restriction to moving exhaust gas so less pumping losses. Pulse tuned extractors improve power in a reverse turbo effect but again all you want is the best air, fuel, ratio. I built a set of real extractors for my KTM LC8 (FCR's) It did not alter the AFR's. The thing that does reduce the volume of air your motor gets is the butterfly valve. It's attached to a TPS and so the volume of air going in will be metered and fuel is added for that volume. TPS controls AFR's. For simplicity leave MAP sensors out ATM

This aside a good map can improve your bikes running. The biggest issues really come from closed loop. It works at idle and cruse and is always stuffing you ratios around and having to switch back as you hit it. Tuneboy is one way I use to eliminate lambdas. I use it on my 1199 and got cruse control and quickshift, which I just love, as a bonus. Tuning by Wideband means blocking the SAS system. The problem I have with Wayne's Tuneboy maps is they are built on a dyno with a LM-1 using autotune. Dynos cannot replicate the street, and autotune suffers from too much interpolation but they are a good starting point for wideband tuners and the dyno is good for ignition curves as you cannot hear pinking on bikes at speed.

So I think Wayne at Tuneboy got rid of the 1199 flat spot with the Acras and most important the ignition advance. He may or may not have also used a WorldSBK MWR airfilter. If you can get one for your bike they do improve performance. Not the way you think. You must step out of the box and look at it another way. The MWR does two things on a Panigale anyhow. The plate behind the filter creates a still air environment for the injectors, and most importantly gives the air going around the plate velocity. By narrowing the entry. yes blocking, it causes the air to speed up. No matter the volume of the air box the air leaves at that same speed. This velocity through an injector improves atomization entering the cylinder. It's in the cylinder where power is made or lost. Injector air velocity on any injected bike is key to performance.

One good way to learn this stuff is get a injected 250 and a big hill and see what works. I have a modern Vespa 250 GTS and all I did was change the exhaust and add 13"MP3 wheels to take advantage of the extra power. It has this little air intake you would look at is and say "that wont work" It's designed for velocity. Thing flys. You can Google things like Duty Cycle, and Staged injection. I just realized I'm assuming this bike is injected. LOL :) It's alright as I'm blond
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
Thank you Lisa for the informative post — and welcome. We look forward to hearing from you in future discussions.
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top