Ducati.org forum banner

21 - 39 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Now I didn't mimick the original setting as I had mentioned a little earlier... but I'm going to...assembly spec has the bike nearly impossible to start...11-15 min start is the current reality...worse than it ever has been...

What I have noticed is the c clip orientation can have a massive impact on clearance...more than I previously thought...assembly spec must assume the valve will rest in this dimension as it beds in....so to place a valve clearance in this spec with a bedded in c clip is a horrible idea...but it also could validate why two valves were so out of spec at the first service...they were adjusted to the ideal point to allow the motor to function...meanwhile ...as they drift out of spec the remainder fall into position...

I've replaced every part...I think this seems plausible... the question is do I change two to test the theory or do I go all in and bring them to the ideal point....the bike does start hot but gets choked out...timing should change this....I'll let you know
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
Doing some homework... very interesting finds....

Not a lot of talk about what an ideal adjustment is...so I drew a graph...and what I found was enlightening....but first...this is for the hot starters

I'm going by sound and that it won't start hot...it's clearly being choked...if you watched the video...ignition happens but flutters out progressively...why?...more so now, than it ever has been...at least since my most accurate adjustment...

...take a peak at my drawing... specifically the overlap...

There isn't much talk on the forum about what's the best setting... it seems we all just go to zero and hope for the best...now....I've been in my notes...and I have two motors to compare against...plus my own adjustments... the acceptable range isn't an isolated value...it's contingent on the others...

I've been enlightened... forgetting what I assumed was the installed clearance value...and only looking at the measurement for what it resulted in at the next adjustment...I noticed a trend...I was very timid about going to a reset value (.05mm closer) so I kept the clearance on the high side for a margin of safety (to give it a number, .05 is assembly...(.15mm) is out of spec...I was targeting the middle .10)...keep it in the middle...but as I did it more and more...my confidence on what I was aiming for was an actuality... fast-forward to now...my bike takes 10-15 min to start and I'm sure my clearances are as desired (.04-.06 closers)....and with that...I took to the chart....what exactly are we doing...what's the impact..what's the target...

A popular cam shaft web site will tell you the most important part of timing is the intake closing...too late and the "charge" is pushed back up the intake...to Ducatista...that means the shim is loose...too much clearance....if it's too tight...your robbing yourself of potential...closing the door...if it's too tight your giving it back....but wait it can get worse

If your putting in your closers super tight...and leaving your openers super loose...you have effectively created the worse case scenario...the exhaust overlap is at it's absolute lowest value ...the intake charge is at the bare minimum and the exhaust discharge has your piston doing work...robbing horsepower...but if you look at the tolerances...this is the expected reasoning...aim for the middle? Right?...

I know ...i'm envisioning most of this in my head and trying to explain it so it makes sense and I'm skipping over things.

Deep breath...

So what....what am I trying to say

In short...put your closers in the middle....(.10mm) and your openers in the tight range ( .13-.16mm)

Now this is just me speaking out of excitement...I might not get to prove it for another week...it's set to pour tomorrow and my parking spot is essentially a pool...I'm going to try...but it runs now and I need it for golf on Sunday...

I'm happy to share what I've stumbled upon here... and if it pans out I'll make a separate post about it again....my initial plan was to hit the middle on all tolerances...but according to the data...openers should be tight...closers should be in the middle...we'll see
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I managed to change the vertical...brought all of the closers to .10mm except one...I set an intake to .15mm ......

The engine is incredibly smooth...it's never sounded so good...tight openers and tight exhaust closers made a huge impact...dramatic...but...

It's slow to start cold now...and still doesn't start hot but it's no longer a 10min wait...with the intake closer set at .15mm (the limit of it's range)...I believe it's getting the charge pushed back up the intake...it makes an audibly different sound than before durring cranking and overall just felt a little weak and wasn't quick to start...it was like igniting a balloon full of gas that had already popped...

I think it can be improved by tightening up the intake closer...possibly below the midpoint (.10mm)

The openers were mostly .14mm....(it's range is .10 to .25, it's pretty wide and not clear what I should be aiming for)...if I were to tighten up the intake...I would in effect lengthen the overlap period...I'm not sure what controls the fueling so making it longer might also allow more to leave out the exhaust... traditionally I've aimed for .17mm....

any changes on the exhaust opening might only be detected on a dyno...but if it's the exhaust gasses lingering in the chamber that's throwing me off it might be prudent to give them more time to evacuate as well... something to think on

I'll try and sort everything out once again by next weekend...while Im confident I'm making coherent changes and the bike is better off...I'm a little concerned if it does work that the functioning range of starting it hot would have such a narrow window...again...I'll keep you all posted
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Welp....it's not valves....it's also not intake manifolds....found mine to be a little rotted so swapped in a new set...no change

Currently needs to cool down to 156... miserable

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Not spark plugs gap..ran the gamut from .07-.09...it won't start up after it's been running at any temp...but does start up the second time sooner when colder
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,431 Posts
Ignition requires only 3 elements, fuel, spark and air. Admittedly in a reasonable ratio, but it should be a kinda wide allowance.
So it has to me something more simplistic than where you are at the moment.

is there an inwards air restriction

Are the coils overheated or failing with temp

Is the fuel getting through, pressure, injectors, vaporising

if it was down to valves and plug gaps we would never start our old race cars on twin webers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Ignition requires only 3 elements, fuel, spark and air. Admittedly in a reasonable ratio, but it should be a kinda wide allowance.
So it has to me something more simplistic than where you are at the moment.

is there an inwards air restriction

Are the coils overheated or failing with temp

Is the fuel getting through, pressure, injectors, vaporising

if it was down to valves and plug gaps we would never start our old race cars on twin webers.
Honestly...I'm at a loss...the internet is full of people experiencing a similar problem on different brands... but no resolution ever is posted...and most theories posted... I've tried myself...I've replaced nearly every component in the chain...only thing remaining is the starter itself...the solenoid...and the fuel pump...each are probably only slightly easier than the valve adjustment...but you can hear it just putter out on the video...starter works... ignition happens...but it just trails off...never to occur again...then it's parked for a very uncomfortable length of time...

I'm quite positive the bike has never ran better...I'm reading over 60+mpg at 55mph...and it pulls like it's never pulled before in top gear...sounds amazeballs...I want to just spank the thing silly through corners but this looming issue...it's reminiscent of my throttle issue... something that haunted me for an entire year...nearly 18k miles as it gradually died and revealed itself...this is clearly getting worse and by all accounts I just wish whatever the problem is would break so I would know....I have a duplicate of almost everything so it's only a question of time to swap it and try it...but still... nothing...frankly, it's a bit exhausting...and my theories are only getting wilder...

It takes less fuel to start than to idle so I'm not seeing fueling as the issue... plus I have an entire airbox assembly that was swapped in and no change...now the air filter did make a difference...paper vs k&n...but the gain didn't last...once running... it's fine...just getting it to keep running after it's been running is the issue....so now I'm onto electric...these coils are near bullet proof and have two sets which have both tested fine on the primary coil...the secondary coil is an electromagnetic induction setup so it doesn't test in the traditional manner...and haven't gotten any reading off the bike from them...also, I haven't looked at the spark plug outside the bike...but it's on the list of things to try next...ie..run a coil wire to an external plug and see the spark...I want to run a separate battery in line with the lithium one installed to see if the extra boost in amperage has any effect...that could point to the stator?...I'm filling the parts canon now with whatever is lying about...it's desperate...but this is what it's coming too...I am more than open to any theory or tests... everything new I try; I swear it's got to be it... completely convinced...until... welp...nothing...been there...I'm over looking something or completely blind to it...the bike has never been this dialed in and yet the problem is completely unchanged...maybe try starting it partially submerged in a boat ramp...lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,431 Posts
Does yours run a crank sensor and a cam sensor? Have you changed these? They should be done as a pair.

in the old days, on cars, you would first blame the ignition module, but I don’t know where you get the pick up for spark, if it’s ecu then your a little stuffed.

here are some more tests only because you love them.
Ride it till it gets hot, take a spare plug and grounding lead with clips, when it won’t start hot, pull your lead/ coil - ground your spark plu and check for spark there and then. Got spark?? Great check the other cylinder.. spark?? Ok. Remove the air filter and see if it starts. Try not to take too long.

you’ve just eliminated 2 things maybe.

if you don’t have spark and I suspect your don’t then Carry you spare crank and cam sensors. You can bang a cold set in.

have you done the EGR valve removal?

when you have it running snd up to temp.. spray carby clean all around the manifolds and check for vacuum leaks. Revs should change to indicate a problem.

oh there’s a thought. If you remove the air filter and still no start try starting it when spraying carby clean down its throat. That tells you if it’s fuel related. Watch for back fires... if it catches fire.. put the tank down and back away, throw the can over the fence and wave your arms about.. wait 20 mins before calling State Farm..

Can you buy a small 12v fan or battery operated tiny fan? Can you stick it some place to blow on your ecu .. try cooling it?

There are some thoughts ... random ones at best.. coz I can’t be stars to go back to the start and read. I lost interest after Bob was shot down on page 1 for questioning why valve clearances were being checked and rechecked.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buhgaboo

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Does yours run a crank sensor and a cam sensor? Have you changed these? They should be done as a pair.

in the old days, on cars, you would first blame the ignition module, but I don’t know where you get the pick up for spark, if it’s ecu then your a little stuffed.

here are some more tests only because you love them.
Ride it till it gets hot, take a spare plug and grounding lead with clips, when it won’t start hot, pull your lead/ coil - ground your spark plu and check for spark there and then. Got spark?? Great check the other cylinder.. spark?? Ok. Remove the air filter and see if it starts. Try not to take too long.

you’ve just eliminated 2 things maybe.

if you don’t have spark and I suspect your don’t then Carry you spare crank and cam sensors. You can bang a cold set in.

have you done the EGR valve removal?

when you have it running snd up to temp.. spray carby clean all around the manifolds and check for vacuum leaks. Revs should change to indicate a problem.

oh there’s a thought. If you remove the air filter and still no start try starting it when spraying carby clean down its throat. That tells you if it’s fuel related. Watch for back fires... if it catches fire.. put the tank down and back away, throw the can over the fence and wave your arms about.. wait 20 mins before calling State Farm..

Can you buy a small 12v fan or battery operated tiny fan? Can you stick it some place to blow on your ecu .. try cooling it?

There are some thoughts ... random ones at best.. coz I can’t be stars to go back to the start and read. I lost interest after Bob was shot down on page 1 for questioning why valve clearances were being checked and rechecked.
It's got a crank position sensor...and that was one of the early swaps I tried...and my second airbox has another ECU which I believe made the swap but couldn't hurt to try again...this morning I went for a short ride... wouldn't start hot...wired up a plug wire...got zapped...it's sparks...lol...a bit on the weak side in my opinion...it got clearly brighter as the opposite cylinder stuttered...with so many attempts I put the battery back on the charger

I don't believe the bike has an egr...it's got a secondary air line that I just de gunked and it had no effect on the start...think it's more for combustion in the exhaust...but it does have a crankcase breather plumbed to the airbox...and if the reed valve is stuck I might be pulling in crap air when I need clean...I've been hesitant to get at it because of how much fun the rear exhaust manifold is to remove...lol...in my head I'm saying that's it! It's got to be...but the excitement has since been tempered...I pulled the hose going in to the airbox and i think it cranked easier but didn't start...also might be the battery at this point...next attempt I'll swap in the old crank sensor, pull the air filter, put in the stock ecu and give the reed valve some attention
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
Welp....rule out ecu... crank position sensor....air filter....crankcase breather....

It fires up immediately...runs like it's never run before...but it won't fire up a second time....not even if it's cold...it's just a lot shorter wait

It starts up nearly immediately with the stock ecu...that's the only difference.... neither will get it to fire a second time.
Race ecu

Frustrating...
Stock ecu
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Is it fly by wire throttle?
Yes....was replaced around 30k miles ago... it's position is reset everytime the key is on....as far as I can tell it's working...not sure giving it gas durring cranking has any effect...I've tried but when it doesn't start... nothing seems to work
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,431 Posts
For a start stop using the kill switch, can’t remember why but it’s bad practice. That’s why there is on/ off written around the key.

That sure sounds like fuelling issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,431 Posts
Have you tried starting it while it’s still priming?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Have you tried starting it while it’s still priming?
I saw that post too...I'm curious to try it again...I have tried in the past but I can't recall if it just waits until the pump primed before cranking or just cranked along without starting as usual...I have a spare pump to try...but I want to run non ethanol fuel through anything that is going to be shelved...which means a few tanks of gas before I do that...same goes for the second airbox...as far as I can tell that's the entire fuel system
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
531 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Looking at my notes... July 28th 2018 started using seafoam...august 4th 2018 disconnected the exhaust flapper claiming victory....and reviewing this post...bike in shop for 7 weeks with no solution...guy blows motor, replaced issue still persists...spoke with Ducati NA.... couldn't tell if he was agreeing just to end the conversation or he was saying something he's not supposed to in a roundabout way...but the hint steered towards fueling...maybe he's read the post...maybe he's reading it now...or if it's me just looking to validate the next aha scenario...

I put 500 miles on the bike before the last round of seafoam made an impact... exactly when I disconnected the exhaust valve...and that was at seafoams recommended dose... basically the entire can spanning multiple tanks...but if you go to seafoams site...it can be as strong as 50/50...so I'm going to dump the full bottle in a full tank and ride the snot out of it in a single day...and if it doesn't fix it...i'll park it for a few days rest while it dissolves any varnish etc...and then one more round....I have used gumouts one and done here and there which might explain why the problem was tolerated for so long...just never fixed...but it's been many moons since it's last "treatment" and it's a chore to restart now...been here before but this is starting to make sense... especially because there's no fuel filter on the pump....but why only the 821 monsters?...trying to set aside some time tomorrow to give it a try
 
21 - 39 of 39 Posts
Top