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More problems on 1098 - Concluded?! hell no

31527 Views 225 Replies 23 Participants Last post by  Cheng
OK,still wont start but turns over;

The freakin thing developped another potential problem: delay when pushing the starter button.

I have yet to check the insides of the switch cluster but something is afoot.
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I removed the airbox and head cover to take a looksee, still looking like new under there; I will explore other avenues along with the workshop manual and see where it leads me
The amount of problems and reworks you have done on this bike defy belief Martin, over years now. I almost feel guilty for having had no issues whatsoever with mine ('07 1098S) in over 92,000 kms, apart from the (3) radiators (all replaced FOC) in the early days. I have replaced nothing in the area of the starting mechanism, for example. Just good luck? Maybe...
This including doing a full engine rebuild at 76,000, where I simply replaced piston assemblies and big end shells and bolts, and little else apart from gaskets and seals, having already gone through the heads at 42,000. (Well, apart from replacing the few remaining steel bolts in Ti while I was in there).
The only other item I replaced being the improved gear locater kit, which I highly recommend. Just back from a ride on a perfect day here, and can't fathom why your experience has been so different to mine. My suggestions are only so you can get back to problem-free riding - please don't read offence into my suggestions.
These are a pretty sound machine in my experience, having owned and worked on Ducatis since the early '70s. We didn't have it so good in those days, with dodgy-quality gearboxes and fragile big-ends (although those were worse for some owners than others...).
As to the question of bent valves - if you have the top lid off, any damaged/bent valve will exhibit excess clearance from its rocker. But of course a simple compression check will also indicate any damage with head cover in situ, with a low (or no) reading.
Not trying to give you the shits here mate - I too have read with dismay and amazement the extent of problems you have encountered. I get the feeling 'between the lines' that you are working a little outside of your experience, although I 'hear you' on the lack of support you have locally.
But truly my friend - you need someone with experience to sort your bike for you, once and for all. I'm afraid you are doing something wrong. Someone with experience on your model, or even just Ducatis generally, will spot what's wrong very quickly. You can't learn how to do good work on these from a book.
There is no substitute for years of doing this work, and I suspect the right person will spot and remedy your issue(s) in minutes. Like you get a builder to build your house, an electrician to do the wiring, a pilot to fly the 'plane etc. I feel certain you would have done more riding (and less spending) if you had had it sorted by the right person years ago.
There is bound to be someone within a reasonable distance of you that can sort it for you, even if they're not a franchised dealer. (Sometimes better if they're not)! Maybe put some time into finding that person rather than blundering on with it.
The time has come. Before you lose your mind going round and round with it. We can't take much more - surely you can't either!

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hehehe well,it sure would be pleasing to have someone around come in and adjust a bit in 20 minutes putting me on the road but heh, after all that crap I would really like to finish the job myself, knowledge last forever!
Look I 'get' that, and of course we all had to learn. And yes, knowledge lasts forever and so on. Well, as long as you can remember stuff...
But there is a price to be paid for 'learning on your own bike', without guidance, and you seem to me to have put yourself through enough, still without a satisfactory result.
Your bike - your call - no doubt about that. I was only thinking of how to move this whole exercise into a more positive phase, where you were actually riding your bike, rather than going through all this pain.
It's just that reading your experiences, with mine so perfectly reliable, and yours a similar model, made me think it was time for you to try a different approach.
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watch out, you might just jinx yourself :p

The bike has been to a ''reputable recommended'' mechanic for months on ends, I sent it to him with a meek problem of busted rings on the vertical cyl;inder and came back with a $2500 bill, broke again because he failed to inspect the head gasket prior to closing the engine up (seized cams in the middle of nowhere, hefty towing bill) he repaired it again and it promptly broke again...then he insisted on having me remove the engine from the frame and doubly insisted on doing a big end job while at it.

So all that being said and done, I want to do it myself no matter the time it takes. I know everything is good and all I need is time the freakin vertical cylinder cams!
Yes well - certainly don't want to "jinx myself", although I think you may be allowing for more esoteric forces than I have found actually apply to mechanical endeavour!
But your example of timing the cams is exactly what I'm referring to. If you had general mechanical experience and insight you would be able to time your cams without marks etc. You would know from setting myriad engines up over the years how to find the correct TDCs, and what the cams should be doing at that point in the revolution.
Obviously on TDC compression both cams are inactive, with all valves closed. The action of the cams will roughly 'centre' around that TDC as you rotate the engine back and forth past that TDC.
On the 'other TDC' the cams will 'rock' into action either side of that TDC, opening symmetrically around it as you rotate the engine back and forth. Of course a handle mounted on the LH crank end better for this than simply using the back wheel.
But virtually any four stroke engine can be set, at least to the nearest tooth, by this method.
But of course you are the one who makes any decisions around your own bike. As I said - I was never trying to give you the shits about this - only to move your Ducati-owning experience to a better place.
Your experiences with the mechanic you used previously are definitely horror-story stuff. From this distance it's difficult for me to fathom; 1. How this person is still in business, and 2. How come you weren't able to bring some sort of agency to bear on his failed 'service'.
That's what consumer protection agencies are for, surely? But proceed as you see fit. I only hope you find your way to the reliable ownership that mine has provided for so long.
It was only that your ongoing reports suggested you had been through so much of this that you may have been losing perspective. The reality is that reassembling these engines and setting their valve timing is actually no more difficult than the average engine, regardless of the multiple valves or the Desmo actuation.
Basic laws apply to all four stroke engines. I was only suggesting that the assistance of someone to whom these laws are clear, and 'second nature', could save you a lot of time and headaches!
All the best with it Martin.
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Yeah well, the bike is at my workplace and I am buried under work, have been for months so its just a matter of having the time to do that; just to be on the same page, I am a mechanic, been that for nearly 40 yrs, just not in the bike dept. I know timing cams is not alchemy hence my desire to do it myself. (I took this engine apart completely, fine adjustments is where I tiptoe)

With everybody around me putting a doubt into my mechanic capabilities and went and sent the bike to a dealer to time my cams and tighten the belts; everything went well. $400 later.

Then they delivered the bike to my shop then I finished assembling everything.

Hit the button, fired right up.

Got pimped up, put it into gear, off I went home.

Everything was fine but maybe 10 minutes into the ride home...it stalled. Never to start again.

Called CAA, they picked me up and brought the whole heap home.

Took me 3 days before I started diagnosing that thing...mad and sick of it.

Took off the tank,. took off the belt covers and sure enough, timing is again out of whack.

No pulley slippage,no belt that lost anything, no sign of slippage or anything...just out of whack again.

So last year I did the job well by myself, there is just something else that probably got damaged when the cams seized...a key or something that perhaps is not totally destroyed but gives up when some load is asked...I got no idea...dealer wants it for doagnosis...here we go for another $3k job that will lead me nowhere.

I might just look for a used engine at this point.
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Did the layshaft belt pulley spin on the shaft....?
Did the layshaft belt pulley spin on the shaft....?
Like I described,it might be the culprit, catching for a while....

I was wondering if that particular problem occured to anyone on the planet because right now, all I get is never heard of that quotes

But yeah, my next exploration will be to take out the pulleys and see what gives
The layshaft is driven off the left side by the timing gear and that is definitely keyed. Maybe worth checking if that key was left out at some point? Didn't you have a bunch of sprag clutch failures?
yeah, but the puzzle is only 1 cylinder gets the cam timing out of whack

I was more leaning toward a possible key from on of the 2 sprockets on the crank(right side)...dont know how its made, I have yet to check the parts manual
Pretty sad to hear this is still going on Martin.
Never mind the insane registration and insurance charges where you are. We are relatively lucky here, with my Ducati's registration (and compulsory third party personal insurance) totalling $478. The 750 Cagiva's now $357, but I am now in a 'rural location' about 60 miles out of Adelaide. But yes - like the Californians we get to ride year-round.
Back to your valve timing - clearly the timing needs to be checked, with regard to key locations, from top to bottom.
Please get your work checked by someone who really knows, with the actual cams and rockers exposed, before running it again. The timing marks on the camshafts change between models, so this is not a 'one size fits all' knowledge.
An actual visual check of cam positions (at both TDCs, on both cylinders) is vital with the changes in camshafts over the models. You are certain that all four cams are original, and from the correct model? A for aspirazione on the intake and S for scarico on the exhausts. (And of course the inlet/exhaust cam position is reversed on one head against the other).
Do a check using the actual TDC - checked via the plughole - rather than relying on any marks.
But, as you said, if only one cylinder is out of time (and you are certain of this) it has to be from the paired pulleys on the right-hand end of the crossover shaft, or above.
I have seen an Ergal pulley that damaged its keyway when it wasn't tight enough, but it never actually lost its timing - just developed play back and forth. But a close scrutiny of these keys and keyways probably a good starting point.
I prefer to refer to the 'half-time shaft' as a crossover shaft on these engines rather than a layshaft, as a layshaft tends to refer to the shaft in a gearbox which has neither the input (primary drive/clutch) nor output (final drive sprocket) mounted on it, like that in the old bevel engines.
Not trying to be pedantic here as much as be clear on what we're actually referring to.
All the best with it Martin. Pretty ordinary that the business who helped you with it can't simply fix the problem they didn't fix as a matter of responsibility, rather than trying to turn it into another money-making opportunity!
I would have expected your consumer protections to offer some support with this (and your previous situations) but of course I'm in a different country, and have rarely had to get a shop to do any work for me.
You may think "well bully for you!" but in reality this lifetime of working on motorcycles has not made me wealthy - only knowledgeable and with dirty fingernails...
And with a lifetime of reliable Ducatis! Sorry I can't offer any more help from this distance. Surely you are close to sorting this..?

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Damn Martin what a story. You're way more patient than me!

I have read everything so let me recap the present situation. Your engine now have a new complete vertical head (i know it's used but i mean you haven't reused any parts from the seized one), and after a 10 mins ride you now have the lower timing pulley and the horizontal cam pulleys all on their marks, but a cam in the vertical is not where it was? No mystery then it jumped tooths again.

Are you sure oil reach the cams journals? Did you verify turning the engine by hand that oil was flowing out of the oil ways? Sure the head gasket had all the necessary holes?

If in doubt next time you are ready to press the start button i would do it with the vertical cover removed, maybe making a box with clear plastic to avoid mess but that should not spray everywhere.

Did you verified at any point that your oil pressure is in spec?

Show us a picture of where your timing is now?

Sending you a pm about "the mechanic", not the first horror story i heard.

Envoyé de mon SM-T820 en utilisant Tapatalk
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It has to be a hidden problem resulting from the cam seizing; looking at the parts microfiche I dont see a lot of parts that can make the timing go boink but wouldnt the belt skin themselves in the process...anyways...to Pat, it was sent to a ducati dealer (the $400 job) to Ricko, yeah, I inspected the gasket.

I have yet to inspect the keyways of the dual sprockets on the right side, I needed the socket for the special nut (got it), will do this weekend...
Well, upon trying to inspect something,anything....I realized that Ducati just couldnt use the same size nut on the layshaft as on the cam pulleys so here I go, more delays and on the hunt for that socket
Removed the front cyl cap and the timing on that one is out of whack as well now...

I might just have to take off the stator cover and inspect that gear; if you guys (those still interested) remember, I posted a sound file (well, in a vid) with a metallic clunking noise coming out of that engine region that magically went away after I timed the cams last year);

Somebody a tad earlier noticed a cam sprocket jumping a bit...its all starting to add up
Hi all, Sorry to hijack the thread but this is the most recent reference to MBP I could find. I was going to reach out to Guy Martin in Montreal to do the heads and install valve collets on my ST2 this fall when riding season is over but the web site is looking pretty dead. Anyone know if he's still in the business?
He is.

Back on topic, I am now in posession of a castle socket for the layshaft.

This weekend will hopefully be revealing
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Kinda rude..
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