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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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Yep, they tried with Kenny Roberts Proton team years ago, but the project was scrapped when money didn't show up. It's unfortunate because they lost years of potential development time and now they're having to pretty much start from scratch. The good news is, Ducati and Aprilia are on the same page with their new bikes… Ducati's in 2015 and Aprilia's in 2016. When KTM hits the grid in 2017, they'll have a lot of teething to deal with, especially with their electronics, but not too far behind the other european brands.

The sad part in all this is the push away from Superbikes. We could really see a decline with improvements in the sport bike lineup's outside of the absolute upper echelon machines like the Ducati Superleggera, Kawasaki H2 and potential Honda RCV213V-S. Only time will tell.
 

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Yep, they tried with Kenny Roberts Proton team years ago, but the project was scrapped when money didn't show up. It's unfortunate because they lost years of potential development time and now they're having to pretty much start from scratch. The good news is, Ducati and Aprilia are on the same page with their new bikes… Ducati's in 2015 and Aprilia's in 2016. When KTM hits the grid in 2017, they'll have a lot of teething to deal with, especially with their electronics, but not too far behind the other european brands.

The sad part in all this is the push away from Superbikes. We could really see a decline with improvements in the sport bike lineup's outside of the absolute upper echelon machines like the Ducati Superleggera, Kawasaki H2 and potential Honda RCV213V-S. Only time will tell.
How exactly are Ducati and Aprilia on the same page with their MotoGP bikes?
How do we know KTM will be not too far behind the other European brands?

Manufacturers do actually have to sell motorcycles so what makes you believe the improvements on super bikes will decline?
We know that the 15 Pani R will have similar internals to the SL and it is highly likely it will benefit from an electronics package upgrade. This is a significant improvement over what was done to a 13 Pani S to bring it to the 13 R model.

:popcorn:
 

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How exactly are Ducati and Aprilia on the same page with their MotoGP bikes?
They both are slated to have brand-new bikes, one year after the other. So when you build a new bike, you generally start from scratch and will have teething issues. Sure Ducati is one year a head of Aprilia and Aprilia is one year ahead of KTM, but they're all very much "new" compared to Yamaha and Honda.

How do we know KTM will be not too far behind the other European brands?
They always seem to deliver…

Manufacturers do actually have to sell motorcycles so what makes you believe the improvements on super bikes will decline?
Don't look at Ducati, look at the Japanese. When was the last time we saw an all-new bike from them? Kawasaki ZX10, that's it and that bike is long in the tooth, been around for a bit now.
 

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Umm...I think you're missing that Ducati's been in it since Yamaha and Honda have been from the beginning (2002).
 

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They both are slated to have brand-new bikes, one year after the other. So when you build a new bike, you generally start from scratch and will have teething issues. Sure Ducati is one year a head of Aprilia and Aprilia is one year ahead of KTM, but they're all very much "new" compared to Yamaha and Honda.

They always seem to deliver…

Don't look at Ducati, look at the Japanese. When was the last time we saw an all-new bike from them? Kawasaki ZX10, that's it and that bike is long in the tooth, been around for a bit now.
By that logic, every manufacturer will be on the same level. They all have new bikes for next year. As an engineer, I can say with a good level of certainty that old designs are not always scrapped in favor of new, but very much improved upon. Why? Because of time required to start from scratch. Engineers don't typically make the schedule that they must adhere to, so compromises must be made. So in short, I strongly believe your statement of "Aprilia and Ducati on the same page" to be inaccurate.

KTM did not deliver the last time they were in MotoGp. And where have their current MotoGP or SBK efforts landed them?

You can't just discount Ducati or MV Agusta or BMW or Aprilia or KTM or other European manufacturers for that matter. Doesn't make sense and its not fair and its flat out wrong. I strongly believe you are incorrect again. With the new rules in place, tech will continue to trickle down as it has or even at an improved pace. Plateauing or declining simply will not happen.
 

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By that logic, every manufacturer will be on the same level.
It's two subjects… One of them is street bikes one of them is MotoGP. I'm sorry they seemed combined in my rebuttal. However, on the street, most of the manufacturers produce equal machines outside of Ducati and KTM who are both making twins instead of inline 4's.

They all have new bikes for next year.
BNG (bold new graphics) is what they do most of the time. Small updates which over time refine a design. The RSV4, S1000R, R1, CBR and GSXR are pretty much the same bike since 2009/2010. Only Kawasaki has done an entire re-design from the ground up.

The Panigale has been pretty much the same since it's initial introduction as well. The 2015 model year will bring some minor changes, but the bike still remains the same.

So in short, I strongly believe your statement of "Aprilia and Ducati on the same page" to be inaccurate.
Both make "long in the tooth" bikes, they've been around for quite sometime now.

KTM did not deliver the last time they were in MotoGp. And where have their current MotoGP or SBK efforts landed them?
They never raced the thing in MotoGP, money disappeared before they could make it happen. The RC8 has won KTM a few IDM titles and many club racing titles, nothing to the effect of Ducati. However, KTM does operate 150 Moto3 bikes around the world and a this point in time, the little Austrian company has won more Moto3 titles then any other brand. Not bad for a company who dominates the off-road field.

With the new rules in place, tech will continue to trickle down as it has or even at an improved pace. Plateauing or declining simply will not happen.
The only current trickle down "tech" relates to electronics. Everything else from the mass centralized engine to under seat fuel cell, to the basic geometry and layout of race bikes, these simply haven't ever made their way into street bikes. Heck, just look at the suspension on street bike's, it's been the same for 10 years. Nobody has adopted gas charged forks or even attempted to make TTX style technology available to the public outside of something with an Öhlins sticker on it. Adding stepper motors and electronics to a fork or shock doesn't equate to making them better or more advanced. :shrug:
 

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I am really curious and excited about the future..
With all of hese new bikes coming out over the next few years, new ECu's, and then the tires?
May have a formula to make it very interesting.
I, of course, think that HRC and Yamaha "should" have an advantage.. But we never know.
The right combo.. A new hungry rider.. And things can change . I think back to '07.. I do not think that ANYONE predicted what would happen then back in '06?
Just because one bike has more time in development doesn't necessarily guaranty an advantage in my eyes?
Who knows, when Miller and Rabat get on the Michelins, we may be in for a surprise? If Ducati's new bike is sorted better, and Aprillia hits it on the mark? This could get very interesting.
The underdogs in my eyes are Suzuki and KTM.. But I may be way off and completely bonkers with that.
Still looking forward to it.

Worth looking forward to in my book..
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The way I look at it now is that it will all be pretty interesting like you say freight...tires, ECU's more manufacturers joining, etc....but in the end I'm predicting a hat trick for Marquez so long as he keeps the bike up during races and avoids any injuries.
 

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It's two subjects… One of them is street bikes one of them is MotoGP. I'm sorry they seemed combined in my rebuttal. However, on the street, most of the manufacturers produce equal machines outside of Ducati and KTM who are both making twins instead of inline 4's.



BNG (bold new graphics) is what they do most of the time. Small updates which over time refine a design. The RSV4, S1000R, R1, CBR and GSXR are pretty much the same bike since 2009/2010. Only Kawasaki has done an entire re-design from the ground up.

The Panigale has been pretty much the same since it's initial introduction as well. The 2015 model year will bring some minor changes, but the bike still remains the same.



Both make "long in the tooth" bikes, they've been around for quite sometime now.



They never raced the thing in MotoGP, money disappeared before they could make it happen. The RC8 has won KTM a few IDM titles and many club racing titles, nothing to the effect of Ducati. However, KTM does operate 150 Moto3 bikes around the world and a this point in time, the little Austrian company has won more Moto3 titles then any other brand. Not bad for a company who dominates the off-road field.



The only current trickle down "tech" relates to electronics. Everything else from the mass centralized engine to under seat fuel cell, to the basic geometry and layout of race bikes, these simply haven't ever made their way into street bikes. Heck, just look at the suspension on street bike's, it's been the same for 10 years. Nobody has adopted gas charged forks or even attempted to make TTX style technology available to the public outside of something with an Öhlins sticker on it. Adding stepper motors and electronics to a fork or shock doesn't equate to making them better or more advanced. :shrug:

I see what you are doing here and I am NOT GOING TO PAY THAT GAME!! You can backtrack, backstep, backpeddle all you want, it wont work.

POST #2 by you:

Yep, they tried with Kenny Roberts Proton team years ago, but the project was scrapped when money didn't show up. It's unfortunate because they lost years of potential development time and now they're having to pretty much start from scratch. The good news is, Ducati and Aprilia are on the same page with their new bikes… Ducati's in 2015 and Aprilia's in 2016. When KTM hits the grid in 2017, they'll have a lot of teething to deal with, especially with their electronics, but not too far behind the other european brands.
ABOVE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RACE PROGRAM

BELOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RACE PROGRAM CAUSING A DECLINE WITH IMPROVEMENTS ON THE STREET BIKES
The sad part in all this is the push away from Superbikes. We could really see a decline with improvements in the sport bike lineup's outside of the absolute upper echelon machines like the Ducati Superleggera, Kawasaki H2 and potential Honda RCV213V-S. Only time will tell.
These are your words. NOT MINE. I've responded to your post without twisting plain text or backstepping. Why can you not do the same? Stand by what you said in post #2 and defend why you are correct in your assumptions.
Until then, accept that you were incorrect.
 

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The way I look at it now is that it will all be pretty interesting like you say freight...tires, ECU's more manufacturers joining, etc....but in the end I'm predicting a hat trick for Marquez so long as he keeps the bike up during races and avoids any injuries.
I would tend to think that you are most likely going to be right as far as Marc next year..
Though, I do think and hope that next year resembles the second half of this season more so than the first half.

As far as the new bikes, riders, tech, and tires?
That all comes later.. Should be fun..
Good to hear that KTM wants to come out and play.. They should hire Marquez, he may be ready for a new challenge by then? :D
 

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These are your words. NOT MINE. I've responded to your post without twisting plain text or backstepping. Why can you not do the same? Stand by what you said in post #2 and defend why you are correct in your assumptions.
Until then, accept that you were incorrect.
I didn't know you were talking about MotoGP! You need to be extremely specific in your reposes when two different subjects are intermixed in a post.

Ok… so MotoGP?

Ducati are starting from scratch as of 2015. What I've heard is that their new bike will share nothing with it's prior generations. Another rumor is that they'll be ditching desmodromics in order to make the heads shorter and get the motor pushed further forward in the chassis.

Aprilia are going to be starting from scratch with a release of 2016, they too are doing an all-new bike, literally from the ground up, sharing nothing with the current generation. I haven't heard any rumors about the design, but the key with BOTH Ducati and Aprilia is that, they'll be starting from square one.

KTM will be producing a bike in 2016 and develop it all year before entering MotoGP. So they'll already have a year of development under their belt before joining the series in 2017, kind of like Suzuki is doing right now and I assume Aprilia will be in 2015.

The way I see it, all three of these manufacturers will be on very even footing development wise by the end of 2017. Yes, Ducati will have an upper hand because they always have a strong motor and have been developing race-winning bikes in MotoGP for years. However, KTM has been the king of chassis in everything they've developed. Building a killer motor will be their only real issue in my book and I have a feeling they'll do very well.

The big question is, will any of these bikes be able to match the might of Yamaha and Honda? We wait to see how much the new rules slow them down. Until then, it's all supposition which is what this thread is!!! None of it's fact, it's just rumors and hearsay. So don't get angry, it's just an opinion and there is plenty of data to back it up, especially the discussion on sport bikes not advancing.
 
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