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This kind of worry s me a little. As I will be a novice rider in 2015. And tiring to go to as many track days as I can.

This is 1 of the reasons why I don't street race anymore. Too many people can't control or don't know what there are doing. When it comes down to damage to your ride or body. No one else is at fault but yourself.

that video shows intermediate riders. I wonder if the novice/beginners group is worst as far as unpredictable manoeuvres. Not staying on there line.,I am betting so.

If I go down that's 1 thing but I don't want some asshat ramming me from behind.(no porno reference please)
Because I took the wrong line.

O-yeah sucks that Pani bit it
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This kind of worry s me a little. As I will be a novice rider in 2015. And tiring to go to as many track days as I can.

This is 1 of the reasons why I don't street race anymore. Too many people can't control or don't know what there are doing. When it comes down to damage to your ride or body. No one else is at fault but yourself.

that video shows intermediate riders. I wonder if the novice/beginners group is worst as far as unpredictable manoeuvres. Not staying on there line.,I am betting so.

If I go down that's 1 thing but I don't want some asshat ramming me from behind.(no porno reference please)
Because I took the wrong line.

O-yeah sucks that Pani bit it
Yeah, the sucky part is that I was actually the ass-hat in this case. I requested running in the red group but they told me my lap times were not fast enough when I said I ran a 1:44 in my first session and can easily break a sub 1:40 (lap record by an AMA racer is 1:31 at that track by the way). Personally I disagreed with their call on that one and since they were adamant my lap times were "way off" red group, I felt I could push in yellow.

In the end my mistake was pushing around guys who were running 20s to 30s a lap slower. I should have either pulled out of the group and pushed for red or just cooled my jets that day.

In the end the responsibility is yours and you need to mitigate a number of factors like your own eagerness, riding style given the circumstances. I failed to do that in this case.

Each group has passing rules, and in green you should only be passing on the straights with ample braking room. In yellow that passing zone increases to all straights and more so into the braking zones....no stuffing the other rider but a clean smooth pass into a turn isn't bad. And in red group passing anywhere is fair game as long as it is clean and safe. When I usually run in red, I run in mid pack, but there are some wicked fast riders that pass so clean and skilfully. They exhibit not only the riding talent but the mental patience and maturity.

I have always found green to be safe and predictable in that it is slow and one always assumes riders are unpredictable so one rides with extra caution.

Red is safe as the maturity level is high as well as predictability.

Yellow seems to be the most treacherous as it is often mixed with green riders who aren't ready to bump up, or red riders who couldn't get into a full red group and a whole bunch of riders who still have a point to prove.

So guilty as charged...I hope my lessons helps me and you guys out there too.

But for real tho, I was hammering the shit out of those Brembos to avoid hitting that guy....I had the back wheel up and even felt the front folding a little with it squirming under me. I am pleased I managed to not take us both out. But for him to be pulling that kind of differential in speed and take the passing lane (left lane is designated for passing on the straight at that track) while continuously drifting over like that....well, as unpredictable as that was, I should have known better when passing 5+ guys on the straight....they were simply running way to slow for that group.

My lap previously was a 1:51...hardly a scorcher...and I felt on pace with warm tires to get into the 1:43 / 42 range. I figure those guys were running 2:05+ which should have sent them back to green.

Thanks for the feedback.
 

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Thanks for the info, and looks like I have a lot of reading to do on this matter.

Cause I think I could have easily been you in that situation.
 

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Sorry to hear of your crash mate, glad you are ok though.

Seriously though, what was the guy in the Honda? you hit doing, looking for a park?

I always felt safer being the in the slower bit of the fast group than the faster section of the intermediate group.

BTW some of those guys, especially the guy in the white leathers in front iof you, should be taken out and shown what an apex looks like ;)

Good luck for future track days and be safe.
 

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Ouch! :(

First off, glad you're here talking to us. That accident could have gone south real quick if the other riders had been any closer. It could have been a multi-bike accident or worse, they could have run ya over. I analyze videos like this all the time, I rather enjoy the detective work involved, so take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt. It's more for discussion sake ya know?

What I get from the video is that you were very frustrated about being caught in that horrible slow traffic earlier in the lap and when you had the chance to motor by those other guys, you pinned it and got past many of them. You wanted to keep that momentum and picked a good place to make more passes. It backfired because every single line was blocked by a slowpoke, you had absolutely nowhere to go! The guy you ran into scrubbed off WAY more speed then you did entering that section. If the other video material didn't exist, I'd absolutely place blame on him. However, the other video material clearly shows the proper line and how the line you guys were on was very much "out of the way". I don't think he expected anyone to follow him "off line".

So I guess the first big question is; why were either one of you guys near the left side of the track? It's overly apparent you guys were WAY OFF the "racing line" which was clearly somewhere on the center to RIGHT side of the track, lining up for the next left hand corner. The bloke in front of you was probably simply trying to get "off line" so ya'll could pass. I know the first braking marker was there, but it wasn't really the entrance to a corner so to speak, the corner itself was pretty far away.

In my opinion and personal experience, the key to surviving track days is to stay on the fast line and if that line is taken by a slower rider, and you can't pass, match their speed. Don't push the issue, trying to thread the needle or ASSUME someone won't do something stupid. Imagine all the people around you could stop at a moments notice. This is the trick which has allowed me to survive for the hundred or so track days on tarmac, close to a thousand events on dirt and years on the street. I know it doesn't sound like fun, but honestly if you wanna bring the bike home in one piece and have a great day, it's the key. Race practices are where you can really open it up and find out what your capable of doing. Racers have a different mentality and they tend to be a lot more aggressive on track, which leads to less poking around. You'll follow a faster racer through a section of the track, tagging on to them, rather then get cockblocked like in this case.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your crash with us. Sorry for the novel… but I thought it was worth putting my 2 cents in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Ouch! :(

First off, glad you're here talking to us. That accident could have gone south real quick if the other riders had been any closer. It could have been a multi-bike accident or worse, they could have run ya over. I analyze videos like this all the time, I rather enjoy the detective work involved, so take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt. It's more for discussion sake ya know?

What I get from the video is that you were very frustrated about being caught in that horrible slow traffic earlier in the lap and when you had the chance to motor by those other guys, you pinned it and got past many of them. You wanted to keep that momentum and picked a good place to make more passes. It backfired because every single line was blocked by a slowpoke, you had absolutely nowhere to go! The guy you ran into scrubbed off WAY more speed then you did entering that section. If the other video material didn't exist, I'd absolutely place blame on him. However, the other video material clearly shows the proper line and how the line you guys were on was very much "out of the way". I don't think he expected anyone to follow him "off line".

So I guess the first big question is; why were either one of you guys near the left side of the track? It's overly apparent you guys were WAY OFF the "racing line" which was clearly somewhere on the center to RIGHT side of the track, lining up for the next left hand corner. The bloke in front of you was probably simply trying to get "off line" so ya'll could pass. I know the first braking marker was there, but it wasn't really the entrance to a corner so to speak, the corner itself was pretty far away.

In my opinion and personal experience, the key to surviving track days is to stay on the fast line and if that line is taken by a slower rider, and you can't pass, match their speed. Don't push the issue, trying to thread the needle or ASSUME someone won't do something stupid. Imagine all the people around you could stop at a moments notice. This is the trick which has allowed me to survive for the hundred or so track days on tarmac, close to a thousand events on dirt and years on the street. I know it doesn't sound like fun, but honestly if you wanna bring the bike home in one piece and have a great day, it's the key. Race practices are where you can really open it up and find out what your capable of doing. Racers have a different mentality and they tend to be a lot more aggressive on track, which leads to less poking around. You'll follow a faster racer through a section of the track, tagging on to them, rather then get cockblocked like in this case.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your crash with us. Sorry for the novel… but I thought it was worth putting my 2 cents in.
I think you nailed it. The racing line at that point is more to the centre and at the speed of the lap below / before I am more than comfy to be on the racing line or even slightly to the left. Even at the speed I was at just prior to the crash, about 115kph, I would have been more than comfy to be off the racing line. I agree with everything you said about being frustrated and trying to do too much at one time.

The left lane on the straight is reserved for intention passing at this track. The problem really started with even the cruisers drifting too far to the left back on the main straight, forcing any passers to keep going too far to the left and way off the racing line when it came time for the tip in marker. None the less, at the point the rider in front of me drifts to the left, that is the natural point for the passers on the left to slide over to the centre or right for race line tip in. To be as slow as he was at that point and cross the natural racing line and cut off the passing lane was pure stupidity, and then he brake checks at the last moment for no apparent reason!

He should have instead gone over to the right and gone off the racing line that way, stayed much wider. Don't forget after the tip in point the racing line comes back to the left tight on a double apex. So there is really no reason to slow up and get off the racing line to the inside, as a) faster riders are coming up on the left side, b) it will force another crossing of the racing line again later when the 2 apexes approach.

A slower rider should have stayed to the right as per the rules and if anything there would have been much more room to run a slower pace at the tip in marker to the right, as tip in for that turn is rather generous at the right side.

I was quite comfortable in my braking zone to scrub off more speed even off the racing line to the left to enter the corner. I was not however able to scrub off an extra 40kph lower speed than normal to enter that corner. In a best case scenario he dropped to roughly 80kph well ahead of the tip in marker which is a comfortable tip in speed of 92kph (at the marker). IMO he was at least 29kph too slow even for a slow rider. Had he not mashed his brakes in the last second I would have been able to avoid hitting him, but he seemed to make an even more insane move by doing that. Look at the rear facing cam and watch the second before impact, he drops his pace irradically.

But I agree with you...I myself left no margin for error in that event. Way too many riders to adequately predict their behaviours. In red group it is near impossible to pass 2 people on the straight, and the speed differential would be no more than 10 kph. The margins for error are drastically reduced. Also my frustration level would be reduced as I wouldn't feel held up.

Red group has it's own problems, especially when following a faster rider and you leave your comfort zone driven by your ego....but those accidents don't usually involve other riders.

Thanks for your advice...the learning in all this is part of the fun.

I'll post damage pics soon.

Bike is in the process of being repaired now.

My injuries were a slightly bruises hip, and a broken tip of my thumb. Lost the nail later and it has now grown back.

PS Rules for slowing up off the normal pace is first to raise your arm to signal to riders behind you are riding at a slower pace and then get the hell off the racing line and out of the way. In one of my other videos I had electronic problems with the Pani and rode a whole lap off the pace which required constantly raising my arm, checking for riders as I came too close to the racing line etc. It is not sufficient to slow up the way he did while crossing the racing line, while previously occupying the passing lane and optimum faster riders' racing line. He needed to be well over to the right. But in the end it was a dynamic that unfolded at a slow paced corner entry with a cluster of 4+ riders. A valuable and nuanced lesson to learn for sure, and certainly I played my part in the myriad of errors.
 

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Well i'm glad you are okay! i had the same thing happen to me once on a track day! almost got taken out by riders that had no clue on what they were doing! I used to race and had not been on the track for a few years and went into the intermediate group for one session just to get the feel again! I learned my lesson not to do that again and just stay in the race group!
 
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