pantah 650 engine: carbs question.
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Joined
·
305 Posts
Bings are easy to service and not a bad carb. I once ripped crappy russian ones of my DNEPR side car and fitted Bings, problems sorted.
on a 650cc I would use 36mm Dellorto PHF (same as pantah) if you are going to fit bigger pistons and take it out to 750cc I would still stick to 36mm Dellorto of a pantah. Only if you go big valves and performance tuning would i contemplate going to 30 - 40mm
on a 650cc I would use 36mm Dellorto PHF (same as pantah) if you are going to fit bigger pistons and take it out to 750cc I would still stick to 36mm Dellorto of a pantah. Only if you go big valves and performance tuning would i contemplate going to 30 - 40mm
Joined
·
6,800 Posts
Not sure if the Indiana engine was any different to the 650 engine in the Pantah, as they were a pretty rare beast over here, and I never had to work on one. (I know where there is one, but I am not mechanically familiar with their details).
But I would tend to agree with the view above regarding the (stock Pantah) 36mm PHF Dell 'Ortos. They would be the easiest to set up, using the stock Pantah components.
They are conventional piston-type carbs, as opposed to the Bings (CVs?) which are less suited to performance. In fact the Dell 'Ortos are the closest spec. to the Keihin FCRs (big fan of these..) with their pumper circuit.
But if you're putting the Indiana motor into your Pantah you would already have a set of these wouldn't you?
But I would tend to agree with the view above regarding the (stock Pantah) 36mm PHF Dell 'Ortos. They would be the easiest to set up, using the stock Pantah components.
They are conventional piston-type carbs, as opposed to the Bings (CVs?) which are less suited to performance. In fact the Dell 'Ortos are the closest spec. to the Keihin FCRs (big fan of these..) with their pumper circuit.
But if you're putting the Indiana motor into your Pantah you would already have a set of these wouldn't you?
Joined
·
6,800 Posts
Just re-read the OP's post, and it sounds like the bike already had the Bings on it. (These were stock on BMW flat twins, and not really pitched at performance). More for smoothness and reliability than go.
I suspect someone gave up on trying to sort their Dell 'Ortos, which had some individual traits. They also used to wear the piston slides and the carb bodies (requiring replacement of the whole thing) if run without decent filtration, which might account for it..
As for the Bings being better than the stock rubbish on the Dniepr/Cossack/Ural flat twins - that isn't actually saying much! (I remember an enthusiast of the 650 Ural fitting a set of carbs straight off a 2-stroke Yamaha back in the '70s, unaltered, with instant significant improvement).
So yes - in my view the Bings are sound, and definitely better than Russian carbies, but try and find a set of stock Pantah Dell 'Ortos if you can. I had a set here, but sold them not so long ago. The only other set I have are connected to a Pantah..
I suspect someone gave up on trying to sort their Dell 'Ortos, which had some individual traits. They also used to wear the piston slides and the carb bodies (requiring replacement of the whole thing) if run without decent filtration, which might account for it..
As for the Bings being better than the stock rubbish on the Dniepr/Cossack/Ural flat twins - that isn't actually saying much! (I remember an enthusiast of the 650 Ural fitting a set of carbs straight off a 2-stroke Yamaha back in the '70s, unaltered, with instant significant improvement).
So yes - in my view the Bings are sound, and definitely better than Russian carbies, but try and find a set of stock Pantah Dell 'Ortos if you can. I had a set here, but sold them not so long ago. The only other set I have are connected to a Pantah..
thanks guys. the pantah engine of the indiana is the "reverse" engine, rear exhaust facing backwards, btw. so in conclusion, try and find a bargain on a 36 Keihin FCR or get a nice pair of 36 Dell 'ortos 36 PHF ...? I was thinkg about EFI using micro-squirt as I have a friend that successfully modified an old GSX-R to EFI using it, but since I don't have much spare parts for this engine, I'm a bit afraid to try...
Joined
·
305 Posts
EFI is best, but can be finnicky to fit.
Bings were original equipment on the Indiana (not sure why, probably something to do with USA regulations as it was designed for US market so pretty rare elsewhere)
However the 650 engine was shared with the 650SL and the Elefant enduro and the same engine and crank/stroke became the 750 F1, just bigger slugs to take it to 750cc and all shared the 36 PHF
Tempting as the FCR will be you may find that angles for fitment may become an issue, it was for the TT2 (rear frame rail and angle) so opted for 41 Dellorto/Malossi
Have faith, 36 PHF will be the easiest, simplest and most reliable retrofit that is proven to work. So if riding rather then spannering is your thing that is the way forward.
Good luck and enjoy the ride
Bings were original equipment on the Indiana (not sure why, probably something to do with USA regulations as it was designed for US market so pretty rare elsewhere)
However the 650 engine was shared with the 650SL and the Elefant enduro and the same engine and crank/stroke became the 750 F1, just bigger slugs to take it to 750cc and all shared the 36 PHF
Tempting as the FCR will be you may find that angles for fitment may become an issue, it was for the TT2 (rear frame rail and angle) so opted for 41 Dellorto/Malossi
Have faith, 36 PHF will be the easiest, simplest and most reliable retrofit that is proven to work. So if riding rather then spannering is your thing that is the way forward.
Good luck and enjoy the ride
Joined
·
6,800 Posts
Sorry I hadn't realised the Indiana engine had the reversed head. That will make fitting any non-standard carbs problematic, possibly including the Pantah Dell 'Ortos..
Unless you wanted to opt for the later Mikuni CVs, which are cheap and available (I have two sets..). But they won't offer much benefit over the Bings performance-wise, apart from being a bit bigger.
FCRs become the better option in that case, but are an expensive solution. But they are a fantastic carburettor. I had them on my SS, and still have my Elefant with them on.
I have fitted them to many bikes, with a 100% happiness rate! Replacing CVs with FCRs gives any twin a big boost - Ducati, TRX etc.
Economical, good performance, and never need touching once they are set up. I love them.
Unless you wanted to opt for the later Mikuni CVs, which are cheap and available (I have two sets..). But they won't offer much benefit over the Bings performance-wise, apart from being a bit bigger.
FCRs become the better option in that case, but are an expensive solution. But they are a fantastic carburettor. I had them on my SS, and still have my Elefant with them on.
I have fitted them to many bikes, with a 100% happiness rate! Replacing CVs with FCRs gives any twin a big boost - Ducati, TRX etc.
Economical, good performance, and never need touching once they are set up. I love them.
Joined
·
6,800 Posts
They are most popular in the 39 and 41 mm choke sizes.
41s would be too big for a 650. Even the 39s would be a bit large, but should still work if the engine has decent compression. I tended to recommend the 39s for road use, even on the 900. (The 41s are more a flat-out track arrangement).
The other variables are that they come as a kit suited to fit different models of engine, including the twistgrip and cables - Ducatis or Yamaha TRX being the most popular. You are probably going to need ones which operate individually, rather than the more common paired 'bank' style, which operate on a common shaft.
The intakes need to be the long ones to fit the paired type, so you probably need to park your bike alongside a later 2-valve Ducati with the tank up and work out whether they would clear the frame.
Fitting the later intake arrangement, and an airbox, may present a challenge.
I'm guessing it's not going to fit on a Pantah frame. (A TT frame would be fine - not sure about the tank). So you will be looking for two individual 39s (or smaller if you can find some) if you still have the stock Pantah frame..
They will need to have the pumper mechanism on both carbs. The paired type only have the pumper mechanism on the LH carb, so you can't get a linked pair and separate them without a fair bit of hassle.
Maybe just get it going with the Bings and look for alternatives at your leisure, without being off the road in the meantime.
41s would be too big for a 650. Even the 39s would be a bit large, but should still work if the engine has decent compression. I tended to recommend the 39s for road use, even on the 900. (The 41s are more a flat-out track arrangement).
The other variables are that they come as a kit suited to fit different models of engine, including the twistgrip and cables - Ducatis or Yamaha TRX being the most popular. You are probably going to need ones which operate individually, rather than the more common paired 'bank' style, which operate on a common shaft.
The intakes need to be the long ones to fit the paired type, so you probably need to park your bike alongside a later 2-valve Ducati with the tank up and work out whether they would clear the frame.
Fitting the later intake arrangement, and an airbox, may present a challenge.
I'm guessing it's not going to fit on a Pantah frame. (A TT frame would be fine - not sure about the tank). So you will be looking for two individual 39s (or smaller if you can find some) if you still have the stock Pantah frame..
They will need to have the pumper mechanism on both carbs. The paired type only have the pumper mechanism on the LH carb, so you can't get a linked pair and separate them without a fair bit of hassle.
Maybe just get it going with the Bings and look for alternatives at your leisure, without being off the road in the meantime.
Joined
·
305 Posts
Not sure on the indiana frame (I presume you are not swapping out frames?) but FCR are a royal pain to try and fit on the older engines (was nice and easy on the later banked carb models)
Agree, get Bings going or go look at pantah delorto's (but check clearance)
Agree, get Bings going or go look at pantah delorto's (but check clearance)
sorry to be a pain in the S... one last question: as the indiana's engine is a reversed engine, the 2 carbs are close to each other. So I was thinking to do the FCR swap but then thought to myself, is there a better option? like 1 single BIG carb? what do you think?
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
