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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
On an impromptu trip to the local dealer in early February, I decided to splurge and buy an '08 1098s and an '11 Multistrada S to replace my '09 Daytona 675 (my ability to rationalize irrational purchases astounds my wife daily). The 1098s would be my track toy and the Multi for my commuting / touring pleasure.

Well, a few weeks ago I was riding my 1098s at Infineon (or Sonoma Raceway, take your pick) for my second trackday on the new-to-me Ducati, when I lost the rear end of the bike in the middle of turn 5. Fortunately (I suppose), the track photographer (Dito Milan - gotbluemilk.com) happened to be in the turn and got a great 87 photo series of the crash. Here are some pics -



























After several weeks, I got the bike back from the shop on Friday ($11k if I wanted everything back to good!!), new Sharkskinz shipped yesterday, I've got a few more goodies from RevZilla coming and some new decals. While I'm at it, I might throw in some levers and a quickshifter. We'll see... The important thing is I've got Laguna in a couple weeks and the bike should be rideable by then!
 

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You've got way too much lean angle going on there. Word of advice, butt crack on the edge of the seat is about how far you should ever be ON the seat going into a corner. Get your head out from under that bubble as well. Your contact patch was very limited on those DOT tires to begin with, looks to me like you rolled off the edge of the tire as you applied throttle. :(

Ohh well, I guess you now have an official full-time tracker! heh ;)
 

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Nasty spill pal. Don't worry, I noticed, unlike some, that you are already well into your off in the first picture so would not dream of giving you riding advice.

Only advice i can offer is :

Pick yourself up...
Take a deep breath...
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.

;)
 

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Ya that's a hell of a lean angle for being your 2nd track day only. Don't rush into it...it's cheaper to learn at a more gradual pace.

Oh and the photographer took 87 pictures of just that crash (so several seconds)?? Holy crap!! How many photos did he have for the whole day then???
 

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Ya that's a hell of a lean angle for being your 2nd track day only. Don't rush into it...it's cheaper to learn at a more gradual pace.

Oh and the photographer took 87 pictures of just that crash (so several seconds)?? Holy crap!! How many photos did he have for the whole day then???

Rub. I do around 4000-6000 pics on a race weekend :) ( I then lose 80% of them )

Burst shooting, it's the easy way to get your shot :)
 

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That doesn't surprise me Zoot, but you take pictures at pro racing events...this was a track day. We have some local photographers that take pictures at our local track days, but it's usually just a few hundred for the whole weekend...I think...who knows how many they actually take and then delete.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ya that's a hell of a lean angle for being your 2nd track day only. Don't rush into it...it's cheaper to learn at a more gradual
Not my second track day, just my second on that bike. I've been doing 5-10 track days / season for about 10 years now, though my last crash was about 13yrs ago at Laguna.

Thanks everyone else for the feedback on technique; photos are great for diagnosing issues like body positioning!
 

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Oh ooops...i misunderstood that. Then don't worry about it, I won't preach to a guy that's been doing this longer than I have :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Oh ooops...i misunderstood that. Then don't worry about it, I won't preach to a guy that's been doing this longer than I have :eek:
No worries...13 years of track riding without a crash means I'm probably not pushing as hard as I could and I have plenty to learn! :p

That doesn't surprise me Zoot, but you take pictures at pro racing events...this was a track day. We have some local photographers that take pictures at our local track days, but it's usually just a few hundred for the whole weekend
Dito's setup is IMPRESSIVE. He's got a couple full size RVs with several computers setup to preview photos, large printers to create up to 36" prints on the spot, equipment to burn CDs, etc. He's got at least 2 of these RVs, and they go to different track events (cars and motos) around Northern California. There are lots of trackdays with lots of participants (many with LOTS of money), so it's probably just a healthier market out here. Not to mention world class tracks. Who doesn't want a pro photo of them coming through the Corkscrew?!

Nasty spill pal. Don't worry, I noticed, unlike some, that you are already well into your off in the first picture so would not dream of giving you riding advice.

Only advice i can offer is :

Pick yourself up...
Take a deep breath...
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.

;)
I had the same sense looking at the first photo, but couldn't articulate why I thought that. I thought maybe it's just a case of perception bias - I already know the outcome, so every photo seems like a progression of the crash itself. What are you seeing that says "imminent crash" in the first photo?

Fortunately the crash itself has not phased me in the slightest. It's going to happen, I was totally uninjured and I've been socking away into the "crash" fund for the last 13 years, so there wasn't really a hit to my wallet.

You've got way too much lean angle going on there. Word of advice, butt crack on the edge of the seat is about how far you should ever be ON the seat going into a corner. Get your head out from under that bubble as well. Your contact patch was very limited on those DOT tires to begin with, looks to me like you rolled off the edge of the tire as you applied throttle. :(

Ohh well, I guess you now have an official full-time tracker! heh ;)
Hahaha, exactly right on the full-time track bike! I agree on the body positioning; I really struggle with that in the shorter / tighter turns. Not sure why that is, but the longer, more open turns I think I've got pretty well sorted.

Interesting call on rolling off the tire, I hadn't considered that. I'd assumed it was some combination of 1) too aggressive on the throttle, and 2) lightening the load on the rear tire due to boot / pegs dragging and "levering" the rear end just enough.
 

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$11k in damages?! Holy hell... it looks like mostly bodywork got broken (and a clip-on and maybe a rearset)... how did it add up that fast?

And I agree 100% about using the photos as self diagnosis. I just ordered my prints from my first track day- my body positioning is horrific, lol.
 

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Interesting call on rolling off the tire, I hadn't considered that. I'd assumed it was some combination of 1) too aggressive on the throttle, and 2) lightening the load on the rear tire due to boot / pegs dragging and "levering" the rear end just enough.
Most DOT tires have a much harder sidewall then slicks do. So unless you're running warmers AND very low pressures (which expands the contact patch), you have a high potential of having so little contact patch, the moment you open the throttle, the added lean angle from the rear sliding, leads you to roll right off the tire.

When your body isn't hanging off the bike, you don't have the strength to get the bike upright when it starts to slide. So you all of a sudden become a passenger and the next thing that happens is a crash.

I've dragged pegs for years, never had a problem because of that. You'd be surprised at how much abuse a solid peg can take before it lifts the rear end of the bike off the ground. The fold up pegs the bikes come with, will simply fold out of the way. I use my toe slider to determine lean angle, thats how low my pegs were and how much lean angle I was carrying. The only way to carry that much lean is to have a super huge contact patch, which only comes from running the right tire and pressures.

So yea, just a few tips. I'd like to see what you look like in other corners. Post a few more pix from the weekend if you have 'em. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
$11k in damages?! Holy hell... it looks like mostly bodywork got broken (and a clip-on and maybe a rearset)... how did it add up that fast?
They wrote up the estimate as though I was filing an insurance claim, so if it had a mar of any kind, it was to get replaced. The big ticket items were:

1. Bodywork (pretty well destroyed, replaced with Sharkskinz)
2. Termi exhaust (scratched, not replacing)
3. Ohlins fork leg (scratched, not replacing)
4. Gas tank (paint chips, not replacing)
5. Clip-on
6. Brembo master cylinder
7. Radiator (dings, but no leaks, not replacing)
8. Rear-set (broken peg, fixed myself)
9. Various carbon bits, including the front wheel mud guard (scratched, definitely not replacing!)

The tank, radiator and fork leg alone were each around $1000-1400. Bodywork was another $2-3k (I didn't actually total it, but Sharkskinz was $150 more than just the OEM tail piece.

To get a bike that is functional and safe for track use is about $3500.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Most DOT tires have a much harder sidewall then slicks do. So unless you're running warmers AND very low pressures (which expands the contact patch), you have a high potential of having so little contact patch, the moment you open the throttle, the added lean angle from the rear sliding, leads you to roll right off the tire.

When your body isn't hanging off the bike, you don't have the strength to get the bike upright when it starts to slide. So you all of a sudden become a passenger and the next thing that happens is a crash.

I've dragged pegs for years, never had a problem because of that. You'd be surprised at how much abuse a solid peg can take before it lifts the rear end of the bike off the ground. The fold up pegs the bikes come with, will simply fold out of the way. I use my toe slider to determine lean angle, thats how low my pegs were and how much lean angle I was carrying. The only way to carry that much lean is to have a super huge contact patch, which only comes from running the right tire and pressures.

So yea, just a few tips. I'd like to see what you look like in other corners. Post a few more pix from the weekend if you have 'em. ;)
Good to know. I run Pirelli SuperCorsa SC2 tires at recommended track pressure (typically 24r / 29f) but I haven't yet popped for tire warmers, so I take 2-3 laps to get them up to temp. I know I should be able to do it in a lap (so I'm told) but my testicular fortitude is not impressive.

Unfortunately my trackday on the Duc ended prematurely before other photos could be had. :smoking: Here are some pics from previous visits to Infineon on a Daytona 675. Critique away -






 

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Good to know. I run Pirelli SuperCorsa SC2 tires at recommended track pressure (typically 24r / 29f) but I haven't yet popped for tire warmers, so I take 2-3 laps to get them up to temp. I know I should be able to do it in a lap (so I'm told) but my testicular fortitude is not impressive.
Ok got ya. Probably a bit of cold tire syndrome as well.

I know the supercorsa's pretty well and use to run 24/31 on the warmers. Much over 26psi in the rear, can cause a slippery condition due to too little contact patch. So if you started with 24 in the rear cold, they might have been around 28 during your laps.

Next time your at the track, see if someone has a pyrometer. Then after a session, get over to them and measure your tire temp's. You'll loose a bit coming off the track, but at least you can get a judgment on where they are. Then get a good, accurate measurement of tire pressures. I find MOST pressure gauges to be wrong. Two PSI is a big deal in roadracing and thats a common discrepancy between gauges.

Unfortunately my trackday on the Duc ended prematurely before other photos could be had. :smoking: Here are some pics from previous visits to Infineon on a Daytona 675. Critique away -
Kool. ;)

You ride a bit crossed up meaning, your butt is off the seat, but your chest is on the tank. You may hear other people say this is an acceptable riding technique, but if you wish to pick up speed and feel more comfortable on the bike, I highly suggest working hard get your head out from behind that bubble.

If you have a rear stand which is strong, you can practice this in the garage by simply hanging off the bike to feel what its like. Maybe you've gotta make some adjustments to your bar position so you can hang off better? I had to make lots of adjustments to my Duc's in order to feel secure in this sort of riding.

The second tip/trick is to limit your time on the side of the tire by finding an apex in a corner, driving towards that apex and brining the bike up right on exit. You shouldn't be hard on the throttle at max lean angle, that doesn't work. You need to be on the meat of the tire in order to use throttle. A lot of people think that painted inside line is where you wanna put your knee, but in reality, its just an outline of the track. WIth big long corners, you still need to enter from the wide line, hit an apex and exit on the wide line. If you work on lines, even if you're slow, it will help greatly pickup your speed because you will have so much more room to break and exit.

Keith Codes book "A Twist of the Wrist" is a great tool at learning how to deal with these things and most importantly how to dissect corners and understand where max lean angle comes into play.

Hope some of that makes sense! :)
 

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yeah that shit ads up quick. when I had my crash, it did somewhere around $6000 worth of damages (at least)...I turned it into a track bike for about $1200. No sense in replacing parts that just have a little scratch. They ad EVERYTHING in estimates though.
 
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I gree on the body positioning; I really struggle with that in the shorter / tighter turns. Not sure why that is, but the longer, more open turns I think I've got pretty well sorted.

Laziness. i am guilty of that often too.
With long fast sweepers we tend to commit ourselves, while short sharp corners mean only a short time and we get mentally lazy to move off the seat as much for just that short time. That's where things get dangerous.

I learned the hard way, like you, except with broken arm in the process.
Now I always imagine how Marquez does it, which gets me off the seat more, head further into the corner than the body. Bike ended up a lot more upright despite sharper turns. Still inconsistent at times, though. I am only human :)

Watch around 00:07 where I tightened my line through the sharp corner not by leaning the bike more, but moving the body lower and further in (to the corner).
Also around 00:33 left hander.
I'mthe one on the Panigale at the front. Just going around slowly so I can be in the vid for a change.


Oh, and the irony of your forum name...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Great video; I see what you mean about using body position to tighten your line. I will definitely work on being more 'dynamic' on the bike.

I see you're dropping your leg in braking like the pros. I read that Rossi thinks it helps stability under braking, like a counterbalance. Do you find that too?
 

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He did it just for show. I tried it out last weekend as well...I mostly did it for the pit lane guys to have a good laugh (i'm not that fast) :D...unfortunately nobody saw it. And no, it didn't make me faster or feel more confident.
 

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I see you're dropping your leg in braking like the pros. I read that Rossi thinks it helps stability under braking, like a counterbalance. Do you find that too?

I did it just sometimes, for LoLs mainly. But yes when I do it the bike squirms less and I braked harder.
But because of that I tend to overbrake and come to the corner too slow for good laptimes LoL!
It probably puts my bum on the seat more (since only one leg remains on the pegs), giving more weight on the rear wheel.
 
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