[akunochi]

So being the "tech" guy for my riding group a friend of mine started asking me about slicks. I'm assuming because he just built a track dedicated 848. I know about heat cycles and why you have to keep warmers in them etc, but what about out right use?

For example say he gets three days off a set of q3s how many days or sessions would he average on slicks?

I know every rider is going to have a different answer based off ability, tracks you run, and style but if you could provide a ball park that's be appreciated.

Seth

 

[rubbish]

You're right that everyone will have different answers, so it's hard to even say a ball park. I've seen people go through a rear slick in 1 day, and I've seen others who can make it last 5 days, and anywhere in between.

 

[219R]

Also depends on the bike's rwhp,... my 1098R would go through 3 rears on an average race weekend.
Including Fri practice, Sat and Sun practice and races. The 848 is a bunch easier on tires, I can use the used set on Friday practice, and one new set for Sat and Sun. Of course, like you posted, the track surface and temperature can make a big difference. I use Michelin Power Slicks, A (soft) compound. Michelin is upgrading their line of race tires, and should be available in the next few months. The race tires will come in two different models, an Ultimate (primo), and a less expensive version. I do not know the particulars of the different models, (price points, compounds, construction, sizes, etc.... will be interesting........

 

[Tuned]

If anyone is asking how many laps a slick tire will run, they probably shouldn't be running slick's.

Modern DOT tires have about the same lifespan as a slick. What separates the two tires is heat resistance. Where DOT's get greasy after around 190F, the slicks can withstand temp's upwards of 220F, which is where a super fast rider will be when sliding the bike around. Both tires require the rider to maintain heat in them in order to have decent grip. Both tires require tire warmers to prevent heat cycles as well.

DOT race tires are perfectly capable of delivering the same lap times, but can be substantially less money. Dunlop makes a tire called the GP212 which is the slick tire, with cut grooves. They sell it for A LOT LESS then the slicks but have excellent wear characteristics. Pirelli also makes a very similar tire called the Supercorsa SC, which is the same tire used in World Supersport. Both the Dunlop and Pirelli offerings are professional tires, used by top teams all over the world.

So I would start by using a DOT tire first and seeing how that works. There will be substantially elevated grip levels over the Q3 and much more confidence. The only side effect is rider speed and if your friend isn't fast enough to burn a set of Q3's in a day, he may not be fast enough to gain any benefits from a DOT tire at this moment. It's absolutely worth the shot but, warmers, proper pressures and hot laps are all critical for the tires to work. When they loose temp, they will feel worse then the Q3's and potential to crash (especially on the front) is a lot higher. The nice thing about hypersport tires like the Q3 is their ability to work in a greater range of temps. Unlike the race/track tires which work in a super narrow range.

Ohh and at the upper echelon's of club racing, the front runners will generally use a new rear for every race. Not to say the one's they take off are bad, but you've gotta do whatever your competitors are doing in order to be strong.

 

[Gunny Fitz]

Tuned,

Dude that was one of the best posts I've read here in a LONG time brother!
That took me all the way back to my CCS racing days when I started by using the track tire vendors and taking my wheels to them via my little track scooter. Pirellis of course!

I ran slicks a few times on my new 748R until I realized my lap times were actually faster of the race DOTs and if there was even a hint of moisture or dew on the track I was EXTREMELY happy I had those DOTs mounted instead! And now that I have what is most likely one of the best tire sales reps and stores in the US (whom I've tried sharing with everyone here - and now some of the new WERE n CCS members here have been using him exclusively for the best prices and support I'm as happy for them as they are!)

Thanks again for what you wrote here and it truly sounds like you know your, ummmm, stuff buddy! Hope you're still ripping up the tracks out there my man! Oohrah!

 

[219R]

Actu ally Gunny, he hasn't been on an asphalt racetrack in about 6 or 7 years and only then ran used Dunlop takeoffs...to my knowledge he hasn't been on a Ducati track/race bike since he crash and parted out his 848, 7 or 8 yrs ago. I am sure he can tell the true dates. Be that as it may, there have been some improvements to race tires in that they heat up faster, and hold heat for longer periods of time. I know the new Michelin that were tested @ NOLA and homestead did just that!! I assume the new Pirellis, Bridgestones , and Dunlops do just as good. And they wear much better and longer. Race tire design and construction has not stood still over the past half decade. No offense intended..just sayin...

 

[rubbish]

I'm switching to slicks for this year, and I hope it will improve my lap times, however...on the other hand, deep inside, I sort of hope they don't because if that's the case, then I'll immediately go back to DOT's and save me some money. I think part of the reason lots of people seem to go faster on slicks is because it's a big mental game for amateurs like us. Yes, in reality the slicks are the better tire choice for racing, and any pro will tell you that, but the difference is not that much. It's definitely not 4-5 seconds a lap difference. I think the average track day and amateur racers put on slicks and in their mind they all of a sudden feel like they have a bit more of a "safety net" and they instinctively begin to push it more, and by pushing it more they get faster lap times...but they would most likely be able to achieve those times regardless, they just need that mental nudge to tell themselves to push it more.

Considering the STK1000 guys run the Supercorsas, and they're only about 4 seconds a lap slower than the WSBK guys on average, who run slicks...there's clearly not much in the tires. Most of that 4 second difference comes from large differences in the bike specs (less power, less chassis upgrades, etc.) and the caliber of the riders. I highly doubt that more than 1 second of that difference is due to the tires.

 

[219R]

It is not just that they will make you faster, I believe the best race/track tires are also the safest tires, because they have the best grip. ...just sayin...slicks have the best grip...in the dry!!

 

[Gunny Fitz]

Hmmmmm.

 

[WERA689]

It is not just that they will make you faster, I believe the best race/track tires are also the safest tires, because they have the best grip. ...just sayin...slicks have the best grip...in the dry!!

Well, Q3's and Supercorsas aren't exactly "unsafe at any speed". The main advantage of slicks has always been the lack of siping allows both more rubber on the asphalt, and less squirm in the tread blocks. The latter has been greatly reduced in the latest sport tires, as they barely have any sipes, and the ones they do have are pretty long and straight.

I tend to think more along the lines of Tye and rub...there's an edge with slicks, but only if you're fast enough to get to it. And if you're not, you're outside their optimal performance envelope.

 

[219R]

^^^ five or ten years ago I would have agreed with your statement .
but today's tire warmer technologies, and the advent of new race tire technology have changed the playing field of keeping properly setup and used slicks, as opposed to DOT TIRES...just my opinion...



..

 

[219R]

Which is not to say the DOT race tires have been dormant... on the contrary, they have also made some huge leaps, as has the slicks. Again the tire warmer technology has helped the different tire models.... going on the track with tires heated to 180/190 degrees is a game changer... especially on track surfaces that are already warm/hot.... it is easy to keep heat in the tires....just sayin.... which is why they wear out so fast.... the old adage " there is nothing like brand new race tires " is alive and well on the race track, especially with todays well set up track/race bike!!!

 

[Tuned]

Well, Q3's and Supercorsas aren't exactly "unsafe at any speed".

That's correct, the "hypersport" tires are very good today. Pirelli's Rosso Corsa, Dunlop's Q3 and Bridgestone's 003R, these are unbelievable tires, reminds me a lot of DOT's from years ago. These top championship tire manufacturers have done a great job taking the technology they've developed through professional racing and putting it into their hypersport tires.

The main advantage of slicks has always been the lack of siping allows both more rubber on the asphalt, and less squirm in the tread blocks.

Yep, but the DOT's today do the same thing. Generally the only difference is heat resistance. So if you're a very fast rider, you'll get more laps on a slick because it can deal with the heat without overheating.

 

[Tuned]

Actu ally Gunny, he hasn't been on an asphalt racetrack in about 6 or 7 years.

Actually, I've never stopped track riding. Took a brief break to heal from my injuries in 2010, but was back on the tarmac in 2011 and haven't stopped since. Last year I did 3 weekends and this year I've already been handed a Ducati 999 for an event next week. I've tested the modern DOT's and slicks from Bridgestone, Dunlop and Pirelli. I've also have tested the modern hypersport tires on my street bike.

 

[akunochi]

Wow guys this has been awesome. I know a subject like tires is border line one like oil brands, but I've learned a lot from this thread already. I agree that neither he nor I need slicks at all right now and probably not in the near future. I appreciate the conversation and by all means please continue, as I am always ready to learn something.

 

[219R]

Actually, I've never stopped track riding. Took a brief break to heal from my injuries in 2010, but was back on the tarmac in 2011 and haven't stopped since. Last year I did 3 weekends and this year I've already been handed a Ducati 999 for an event next week. I've tested the modern DOT's and slicks from Bridgestone, Dunlop and Pirelli. I've also have tested the modern hypersport tires on my street bike.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:

my, my, how your stories change from week to week....just sayin.....
:shrug:.... guess you have a job too....

 

[ENZOSO]

Obsession! what color was his last bowel movement and what was it's consistency:laughing:

 

[W17]

Last weekend I went through two rears at my race weekend . Started practice day on new rubber then changed tyres the next day . Went into 2 15minute qualifying sessions the next day and did three 6 lap races .
Tyres are good for a track day this weekend .
I am using Sc1 front and SC2 rear Diablo Superbike Slick.

 

[ENZOSO]

I thought the biggest issue with slicks was if you can get them hot enough for them to work and then of course be consistent enough to keep them hot.

If you cant keep the heat up their adhesion goes away and they then offer less grip... Yes..No?

 

[219R]

Obsession! what color was his last bowel movement and what was it's consistency:laughing:

You seem to follow my posts like a groupy!!! Maybe you need to clean up your own obsessions there Enzo... Btw, mine was firm, brownish, I had Mexican last night...soo a little burn..other than that ..very satisfing....just shit...so to speak....