[Mcgician]

Dan Kyle, I know you're out there. I've read some of your replies on this forum regarding 1098 suspension setup and others. The suspension setup thread was particularly useful, so thank you. We met briefly at Laguna at your booth. Anyway, I'd like to "cure" the somewhat abrubt off/on throttle response my 1098 has. I've already spent almost $3,000 for the full Termi setup and want to make that power more useable. The abrupt on/off throttle response makes it difficult sometimes exiting certain corners. I'd be interested in running the power commander if I could be certain it would work, but my dealer doesn't seem to think that it's compatible with the Magnetti Marelli ECU from Ducati. Are they full of it or what? I think the bike's just so new nobody knows. Anyone else have answers?nthecan:

 

[Antigravityman79]

I agree on the throttle response. I've made a post on it too and never really got a solution. I saw a different throttle setup once but was never able to find it again. It looked like it was a metal throttle instead of plastic, but I could've been mistaken. I was thinking about going up one tooth in the rear, cuz I feel like I'm in between gears sometimes in the really tight corners. But that might just make it worse. These things just have so much torque, I think it will be difficult to alleviate this problem.

 

[dagor6]

I have a PCIII on my 1098, it doesn't engage until 5500 rpm and 17% throttle, so it's not going to have any impact on your throttle response. They're difficult to tune as well because you have to tune the cylinders independently.

I'm more surprised you seem to think the throttle is abrupt on/off as mine was pretty much silky smooth from the factory. And still is

 

[deathpulse]

How did you get a PC-III? The Powercommander site still says "coming soon"?

 

[armstrong82]

Motowheels.com

I bought a performance throttle controller on motowheels.com. It located under the European section under Italian Misc. for Ducati 1098. Anyway, it cost about $100 and took about 2 minutes to install. Goodbye crappy throttle response. This is a huge improvement coming out of tight corners.

http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=853%7CMisc%2E%20Parts%3A%20Italian&productID=4151&showDetail=1&categoryID=865|Ducati%201098%20Misc%2E&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168%7CEuropean%20Motorcycle%20Parts

There's the link.

 

[Dan Kyle]

Dan Kyle, I know you're out there. I've read some of your replies on this forum regarding 1098 suspension setup and others. The suspension setup thread was particularly useful, so thank you. We met briefly at Laguna at your booth. Anyway, I'd like to "cure" the somewhat abrubt off/on throttle response my 1098 has. I've already spent almost $3,000 for the full Termi setup and want to make that power more useable. The abrupt on/off throttle response makes it difficult sometimes exiting certain corners. I'd be interested in running the power commander if I could be certain it would work, but my dealer doesn't seem to think that it's compatible with the Magnetti Marelli ECU from Ducati. Are they full of it or what? I think the bike's just so new nobody knows. Anyone else have answers?nthecan:

Your dealer should just say "I do Not know if it will work because I have not tried it" not "I do not THINK it will work"

I have had a Power Commander on my bike for months, as well as selling a number of them.

So the answer is the one we use does work.

Your drivability problem is the fuel mixture with the termi full system and race ecu is simply too rich. We alter the fuel curve using the Power Commander to correct this.

 

[Dan Kyle]

I have a PCIII on my 1098, it doesn't engage until 5500 rpm and 17% throttle, so it's not going to have any impact on your throttle response. They're difficult to tune as well because you have to tune the cylinders independently.

I'm more surprised you seem to think the throttle is abrupt on/off as mine was pretty much silky smooth from the factory. And still is

You have the production Power Commander on your bike.

This is important, the production Power Commander that is not adjustable below 17% throttle opening and 4500RPM is NOT the same one we sell.

But the one you have is the correct one for the STOCK ECU.

The first poster has the race ecu and the termi full system, is that what you have also??
If not than any comparison between how your bike works and how his bike works are meaningless.

 

[lee]

I didn't care for the "on/off" throttle action when coming out of idle either. Way too twitchy, and I had to feather the clutch when starting off. I bought a variable opening rate throttle from www.evoluzione.net and it has cured the problem. Comes on slower out of idle and then increases the rate at about half throttle. Bye bye sensitive throttle response. I did have one problem with it though. The OD on my tri bars is .871" and the ID of the throttle was .870". They tried one on a 98S and sent it to me but it was the same. So I stuck it in the lathe and took out .008" and it's now fine. I guess I must have weird bars. It's a nice piece though. Machined Aluminum.

 

[Mcgician]

Your dealer should just say "I do Not know if it will work because I have not tried it" not "I do not THINK it will work"

I have had a Power Commander on my bike for months, as well as selling a number of them.

So the answer is the one we use does work.

Your drivability problem is the fuel mixture with the termi full system and race ecu is simply too rich. We alter the fuel curve using the Power Commander to correct this.

This guy is awesome!! Thanks again, we'll be doing some business now. By the way, the dislplay of the stock forks with Ohlins internals was a nice thing to see at your booth. Sure, everyone oohs and aahs over the full system, but eventually I'll be looking to make the "stealth" upgrade.:king:

 

[dagor6]

You have the production Power Commander on your bike.

This is important, the production Power Commander that is not adjustable below 17% throttle opening and 4500RPM is NOT the same one we sell.

But the one you have is the correct one for the STOCK ECU.

The first poster has the race ecu and the termi full system, is that what you have also??
If not than any comparison between how your bike works and how his bike works are meaningless.

I'm running stock but I have a copy of both maps since I'm still considering the Termi's. Dynojet tuned both and said they both have the same restriction.

It would seem that the bike compensates itself below those values.

 

[mrinflux]

Sales pitch

This guy is awesome!

I don't know DK personally, but based on his posts, it's apparent that DK is, (at least in part), in the business of selling and installing Power Comanders. Consider his comments in that context.

When I asked Bill Himmelsbach, mechanic extraordinaire, Senior Tech at Martin EuroSports, about a PC for my 1098S, he explained to me that: 1, as presently configured, the PC isn't even compatable with the 1098, and 2, even if you rig a PC into a 1098, there will be no significant increase in perfomance.

Anybody who knows Bill Himmelsbach knows this guy know his stuff. I don't remember the details of his explanation so I won't attempt to repeat it here, but it made perfect sense.

Notwithstanding the lack of any real benefit from a PC install, Bill and the gang at Martin Eurosports could easily have sold me a PC. After all, they'd make money on the sale and install. But that's not how they do. They're honest. And they run a racing team. They know how to make Ducatis run fast. If the PC improved performance, Bill would be selling and installing them on the 1098.

I guess it boils down who you want designing your Ducati. PC and Arrow, (or whatever aftermarket cans you go with), or Ducati? No offense to PC and Arrow, but I'll stick with Ducati. When Ducati Corse installs a PC on the GP7, I'll be the first to go out and buy one. Until then, I'm sticking with Ducati's racing ECU.

Elton

 

[dagor6]

^ Well, let's be fair here. Ducati pigeon holes you into a set of three thousand dollar termignoni pipes, which you then have to have the dealer install at additional cost to get the thing remapped correctly. No other manufacturer stacks the deck against using "non" factory parts. With the R bikes the cost was traditionally even greater.

Believe it or not, Akrapovic for example makes higher quality gear at less cost. Personally, I'm looking closely at using the Graves pipes for 1K out the door.

When you step out of the ducati box you typically have to use a PCIII to get the fuel map to be correct, and that's it's main purpose.


On a side note, I have a ducati quick shifter (plugs into stock harnesses) and it's terrible to the point of barely working. For example sometimes it re-engages before you've completed your shift, 'causing a huge lurch, and other times it stays engaged to long causing bigger lurches than shifting normally alone.

With the PCIII you can use the dynjoet quickshifter which is much better than the starlogic or whatever crap Ducati OEM's for 700 bucks (the same cost as the PCIII and QS together!!!)

 

[Dan Kyle]

It would seem that the bike compensates itself below those values.

No it does NOT.

The O2 sensors on the bike are what are referred to as NARROW BAND O2 sensors. These are slow to react and have a limited reading range. They are to slow to react to changing throttle setting and react only to steady throttle settings.

 

[Dan Kyle]

I don't know DK personally, but based on his posts, it's apparent that DK is, (at least in part), in the business of selling and installing Power Comanders. Consider his comments in that context.

When I asked Bill Himmelsbach, mechanic extraordinaire, Senior Tech at Martin EuroSports, about a PC for my 1098S, he explained to me that: 1, as presently configured, the PC isn't even compatable with the 1098, and 2, even if you rig a PC into a 1098, there will be no significant increase in perfomance.

Anybody who knows Bill Himmelsbach knows this guy know his stuff. I don't remember the details of his explanation so I won't attempt to repeat it here, but it made perfect sense.

Notwithstanding the lack of any real benefit from a PC install, Bill and the gang at Martin Eurosports could easily have sold me a PC. After all, they'd make money on the sale and install. But that's not how they do. They're honest. And they run a racing team. They know how to make Ducatis run fast. If the PC improved performance, Bill would be selling and installing them on the 1098.

I guess it boils down who you want designing your Ducati. PC and Arrow, (or whatever aftermarket cans you go with), or Ducati? No offense to PC and Arrow, but I'll stick with Ducati. When Ducati Corse installs a PC on the GP7, I'll be the first to go out and buy one. Until then, I'm sticking with Ducati's racing ECU.

Elton

I have just one question for you to ask Bill.

Did he try a Power Commander with a custom map?

As I have.

And Yes I do sell Power Commanders, and as I use my real name, I certainly do not try and hide that fact from anyone. We sell more than $1,000,000 worth of Power Commanders a year.

Ducati does not need to install a Power Commander on any bike, as they are making the ECU they can map it any way they want to, after all that is all a Power Commander does.


And why would anyone need a Power Commander?
First reason, Ducati HAS to meet emmisions in the USA, this limits how they can MAP the bike. The bikes are mapped for the best throttle response limited by first having to meet emmisions standards.
Second when any aftermarket exhaust system is installed, guess what happens, the engine now has different air/fuel requirements, guess what a Power Commander does.
This should be clear to anyone as even Ducati sells you a different ECU with the full Termi system.
But even that ECU is not mapped right, how do I know I checked it myself, I did not ask someone, I checked.
Why is it not right, that I can only GUESS at.
So why bother.
I find the map in the Race ECU to be very rich.

Here is what the map looks like, notice all the minus numbers.

 

[vinman]

http://www.evoluzione.net/evo-cycle.htm

Also has the modified throttle.

 

[mdallas]

Please listen to what Dan has to say. I bought a PC3 from him for my full termi equipped 1098. I had a custom map done by BCM, While not exactly the same as Dan's map it is very close. The DP ecu is very rich indeed. While maybe not a big increase (151.1 rwhp and 84.3 ft lbs), the drivablity differance is massive. A PC3 is a must have for the full Termi bikes in my opinion.

 

[RickL]

Damnit, I need to start twisting my thottle harder. I really want to start complaining about my engine too but the thing is so F'ing fast I couldn't do it without lying.

 

[Dan Kyle]

Damnit, I need to start twisting my thottle harder. I really want to start complaining about my engine too but the thing is so F'ing fast I couldn't do it without lying.

It is not about power, it is about improved drivability. Making that "thing" that is so fast more controlable.

 

[bikenut]

I run a MAP provided by Dan Kyle in my RC51. Not only does he know how to tune a bike better than almost anyone out there, he shares the information with us fella's that don't have the expertise, equipment or time required to develop such maps..How many other's do that?? Dan knows his stuff and he's willing to share with those bright enough to listen..He's even posted a map right here on this sight..How sweet is that! I am ordering a powercommander tomorrow, and installing Dan's map in my 1098. Thanks Dan Kyle!! I and so many others appretiate so much what you do!

 

[Mcgician]

I have just one question for you to ask Bill.

Did he try a Power Commander with a custom map?

As I have.

And Yes I do sell Power Commanders, and as I use my real name, I certainly do not try and hide that fact from anyone. We sell more than $1,000,000 worth of Power Commanders a year.

Ducati does not need to install a Power Commander on any bike, as they are making the ECU they can map it any way they want to, after all that is all a Power Commander does.


And why would anyone need a Power Commander?
First reason, Ducati HAS to meet emmisions in the USA, this limits how they can MAP the bike. The bikes are mapped for the best throttle response limited by first having to meet emmisions standards.
Second when any aftermarket exhaust system is installed, guess what happens, the engine now has different air/fuel requirements, guess what a Power Commander does.
This should be clear to anyone as even Ducati sells you a different ECU with the full Termi system.
But even that ECU is not mapped right, how do I know I checked it myself, I did not ask someone, I checked.
Why is it not right, that I can only GUESS at.
So why bother.
I find the map in the Race ECU to be very rich.

Here is what the map looks like, notice all the minus numbers.

Damn, that had to sting! Anyway, look I've met DK, and he's got enough business coming in to not have to take the time to bullshit all of us on this forum. He's straight up, and I believe him. Thanks for everyone's input-it helped the post come full circle like it was intended.