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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
(edited to convert F to C for everyone)

If you own a 1098 I believe there is a flaw that needs to be rectified. Read this thread carefully (I know it's a lot of info), ride your bike on the highway with an ambient temp of about 70F (21C) or COLDER (so you can get your bikes 'running temp') and post it up.


I thought I was alone in having oddly LOW water temps. Here's some food for thought: The 1098 goes from cold map (too rich to help with cold running/starting) to warm map at 160F (71C). I've removed the thermostat and it opens EXACTLY at 160f (71C) as measured with a contact thermometer and infrared.


This means that on the highway your bike should warm up 160f (71C) (warm map) and STAY there. Personally, if I take an extended run on the highway my bike balances at 138F (59C). IMO this is WAY too cold. This means my bike is running in cold map and too much fuel is being dumped into the cylinders. I get about 32mpg doing 80mph on the highway which is low but not horribly so.

However, everyone should read up a bit on the 1997 TL1000S which also had cooling problems similar (arguably worse) than what our 1098's have. The TLS notoriously ran cold - resulting in fouled plugs, fuel in oil, potential ring damage, potential cylinder wall groove damage, potential bearing damage. Basically it thins out your oil. On a TLS you can actually smell fuel in the oil if you having fixed the cooling issues.


I wonder what Ducati's take is on this. My dealer said it's absolutely normal, they replaced my temp sensor (which seems to read about the same imo) and said that's really all that they can do - even if it isn't correct that it's how Ducati sets up the bikes.

Now, personally, I believe that either ALL of the temp sensors are bad (we are all having this problem, correct?) OR Ducati measures the coolant at the wrong place, OR the ecu is programmed to alter the temp or something.


I wonder what the next step is - a hotter thermostat would fix/help the problem but also cause the bike to run a bit warmer (I would be fine with this as I monitor temps closely). On my TL I was able to find an aftermarket thermostat but the 1098 seems to be a bit of a specialty job. Another alternative would be to wire in a resistor into the temp sensor where you could flip a switch, or maybe somehow add ~3% to the value? How does this affect fuel mapping?


No matter what, it makes me nervous. I plan on keeping my bike for a long time, and currently it's a PITA because I don't ride it if it's too cold to keep it above 160f.

My bike was about 18k. If I keep it for 18k miles then it's costing me $1 a mile.


That means that a 300 mile saturday ride is costing $300. Commute 30 miles a day to work? $30. (edit: explanation of math is in a later post.)

At these prices I want my bike to last as LONG as possible, and I'd like to have some of these questions answered. I wonder if there's a way to get in touch with Ducati of North America and get an answer on this. My dealer is helpful but I believe they're right - the bike is running as intended from Ducati.



EDIT!!!!

Check near page 6 of this thread - THERE IS A PARTIAL FIX! Richard H. has discovered that the plastic housing which the thermostat screws into covers the thermostat too much, only allowing the flat tip of the sensor to contact the coolant. We have both dremeled a bit of material away and seen NOTICABLY improved heating/cooling characteristics. It hasn't quite fixed my highway overcooling issues but it has certainly helped.

I have also discovered a replacement thermostat that may help. It is .75cm longer and a better brand than what Ducati puts on the 1098. I am still doing some testing to ensure it will read the proper temps, so I do not recommend trying until further notice.

Edit 2!!!!!!!

http://www.ducatispot.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195193#post195193

I also discovered that the OE temp sensor reads about 10F TOO COLD as compared to a better quality Napa part (which also has a slightly longer probe)
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Ok, I'll make the first post:

If it's 70F (21C) outside or lower and I'm on the highway (riding long enough for temps to stabilize, no stop and go, etc - we're testing the cooling system here) my bike reads 138F (59C).
 

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You'll have to work with me with temps in C. It's the 21st century after all, even on planet America.
Ha ha, sorry I'm at work and its half past 3 in the morning and I'm getting tired. :stickpoke

During winter where I am when air temps were anywhere between -8 and 15 odd degrees, it would be rare for me to get water temps above 65.

Granted that did seem a little low and I did wonder about the fuelling temp offset. But then I thought, maybe going a little ritch with nice cold air is not a bad thing.

I think most people will tell the same story.

One thing I will say, don't go a hotter thermostat (if one is available). I think it would be a bad idea considering how quickly these things heat up at low speeds.

As a comparo the DB7 has the same engine and radiator but different plumbing, thermostat and temp sensor in a different position. The temps behave prety much the same with the exception of heating up slightly faster in traffic than the Duc because of the radiator being mounted slightly higher effecting airflow at lower speeds.

I really wouldn't worry about it.

Relax, go for a ride. :)
 

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I've posted before on this issue. I can't even ride my bike below 50 degrees ambient. Not because it's too cold for the rider, it's too cold for the bike.

BTW, your math is flawed on your cost-per-mile calculation. Your calc assume zero residual value, i.e., your bike crashes, bursts into flames and burns down to a smoking lump of rubble, and with no insurance.
 

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I've posted before on this issue. I can't even ride my bike below 50 degrees ambient. Not because it's too cold for the rider, it's too cold for the bike.
Might sound silly but if you're worried have you considered some sort of partial block off plate for the radiator?

I've seen similar things on trucks radiators and even oil coolers on Harleys for sub zero conditions.
 

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I don't get the $1 a mile analogy.

Your bike cost $18K, PLUS quite a bit in maintenance over 18K miles.

But the real question I have is the whole 18K miles? You're going to get rid of it when it crosses 18K?

Shoot I can put 18K miles on a bike in two years EASY.

If you're not having any specific problems with it and Ducati says it's OK, ride it and quit worrying.

On a final note 32 MPG at 80 mph on an 1100 L twin is pretty darn good in my book.
 

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The "problem" is that these bikes (by "bikes" i mean this level of technology and design) are ultimately made for tracks/racing not freeway use, you need a Nemesis unit or race ECU and PCIII....."problem" solved.
 

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Mine does the same. I have never had any problem with it and to be honest my bike runs harder in colder weather due to the colder air and pressure. All my high performance cars run better also in the cold. On the milage I can get anywhere from 28-36 depending on what type of riding I am doing. I would say average is about 31-32.
 

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I went on a ride today. Temperature outside was 51 degrees F. I partially blocked off the bottom half of the radiator with Gorilla Tape, as usual. The bike was running between 170-188 F. the entire ride. After I had the termi slip-ons and race ecu installed at 600mi. a year and a half ago, I noticed that the display was showing very low coolant temperatures. I initially thought that the sensor was bad, but the infra-red gauge I used confirmed that the display was accurate. I was under the impression that with a normal cooling system that changing the exhaust flow and fuel mixture shouldn't have a drastic effect on the operating temperature. As I said in a previous post on this subject, I got absolutely NOWHERE with my dealer on this subject. Riding my 1098 to the dealer in January '08, the bike was running a temp. of 118-122 F. on the highway. The dealer called the Ducati service rep and was told that this is "normal". That's total BS! I can't see the logic in consistently running an engine (ANY watercooled engine) below 160 F. Would you run your car that way? Isn't running an excessively rich mixture going to cause oil contamination and cylinder lubrication problems long-term? I still don't understand why the cooling system on my 1098 defies logic. I'd play it safe and partially block the radiator (and oil cooler) especially if you ride year-round like I do. IMO as long as the coolant temp is above 160F. when warmed up, the engine is going to stay healthy
 

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I never understood this either. If someone has measured that the actual thermostat opens at 160 deg. At what temp does it close? I thought the engine would stay between these two temps until a higher temp than the open temp overtakes the cooling system cooling capacity and rises till the fans turn on to bring temps down to ???. The gauge in my truck and car do not fluctuate the way this bike does. It seems that the gauge is measuring system temp, not engine temp.
 

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If your are worried about fuel consumption you have got the the wrong bike,. Who cares how much fuel they drink? Get a scoota.
 

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Strad, if its rich, ( or lean, for that matter ) it wont affect the lubrication in the slightest.
Compression rings and scraper rings...remember?
Unless youre sugesting youve fucked something in there.
Think about it the 2 are always seperated.
If you atr talking CLEARENCES...well then, cooler isnt COLD. thats way different.
Put it on the track, and it will heat up more, work it, and all will be fine. Put around under 5- 6 K in those ambient conditions...and it wont heat up to the next map...easy...but no real harm done.
You bought a superbike, ride the thing the way it was intended
 

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Discussion Starter #15
If your are worried about fuel consumption you have got the the wrong bike,. Who cares how much fuel they drink? Get a scoota.

I'm not worried about the cost of fuel consumption, I'm worried about the reason that I get such bad gas milage and the long term effects it has on the motor. HUGE difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I never understood this either. If someone has measured that the actual thermostat opens at 160 deg. At what temp does it close? I thought the engine would stay between these two temps until a higher temp than the open temp overtakes the cooling system cooling capacity and rises till the fans turn on to bring temps down to ???. The gauge in my truck and car do not fluctuate the way this bike does. It seems that the gauge is measuring system temp, not engine temp.

Yes, I measured mine and it opens right at 160F, fairly quickly (this was with contact and IR thermometer, I know it's accurate) and closes back up right at 160F. There's a bit of leeway (starts to open at ~157, fully open at 165 or so) but it looks good. It also didn't look like there was any kind of a large bypass or anything (which would exacerbate the overcooling problem).

I looked online and talked to my Ducati tech and the 1098 goes from cold map to warm map at 160F. I believe that this means that if your dashboard says 159F then your mix is too rich. Maybe it's staggered or something where the mixture slowly changes (tech didn't know), but I know that my TL was a fairly hard switch from cold map to warm map. Again - this is a known problem with the 1997 TL1000S - google it. There were MANY problem that suffered motors with a ~15k life because they ran in cold map so often that it caused the oil to get soaked with gasoline. I absolutely am sending a sample to blackstone labs and if it comes back with a lot of fuel I'm going to be PISSED.

My 18k math says that my motor will last 18k, after which I'll have to spend the value of the bike in buying/installing a new motor.

The "problem" is that these bikes (by "bikes" i mean this level of technology and design) are ultimately made for tracks/racing not freeway use, you need a Nemesis unit or race ECU and PCIII....."problem" solved.
No, it isn't a trackbike. Not very many people are buying an 18k dollar bike and taking it straight to the track. This is a streetbike, and IMHO it is UNACCEPTABLE for any streetbike to require ~70F (21C) or higher ambient conditions. That's is a fairly fatal flaw - that means that 1/2 of the US can probably only ride the bike 6 months a year AND you can never leave before 10AM. I live in the southeast US, it's fairly warm here and it still gets chilly in the morning. WTF am I supposed to do, tape up my radiator for the 50F (10C) highway run up to the mountains in the morning and then take the tape off when it gets to be 80F (27C) and my bike is overheating??


I'm telling you guys - I'm upset for a damn good reason. I completely understand and accept that this isn't a bike for 'all' conditions. I wouldn't ride below freezing, hell, I could understand if less than 40F (4C), but this problem isn't caused by some 'nature' of a Ducati. It's a specific cooling problem and IMO the question needs to be answered by Ducati. I'm going to try and dig up a customer service email, maybe there's some magic answer (like a staggered fuel map) but a lot depends on my oil analysis.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
ALSO -

Even if you skip my long post - just remember these numbers -

Warm map - 160F / 71C

If your bike is under this temp that means that you are in cold map (I believe, and I will certainly update if I get an answer from Ducati)

This means your motor is potentially being damaged! Keep those temps UP guys (I know it's a stupid problem to have on a such hot-running bike in the summer)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I went on a ride today. Temperature outside was 51 degrees F. I partially blocked off the bottom half of the radiator with Gorilla Tape, as usual. The bike was running between 170-188 F. the entire ride. After I had the termi slip-ons and race ecu installed at 600mi. a year and a half ago, I noticed that the display was showing very low coolant temperatures. I initially thought that the sensor was bad, but the infra-red gauge I used confirmed that the display was accurate. I was under the impression that with a normal cooling system that changing the exhaust flow and fuel mixture shouldn't have a drastic effect on the operating temperature. As I said in a previous post on this subject, I got absolutely NOWHERE with my dealer on this subject. Riding my 1098 to the dealer in January '08, the bike was running a temp. of 118-122 F. on the highway. The dealer called the Ducati service rep and was told that this is "normal". That's total BS! I can't see the logic in consistently running an engine (ANY watercooled engine) below 160 F. Would you run your car that way? Isn't running an excessively rich mixture going to cause oil contamination and cylinder lubrication problems long-term? I still don't understand why the cooling system on my 1098 defies logic. I'd play it safe and partially block the radiator (and oil cooler) especially if you ride year-round like I do. IMO as long as the coolant temp is above 160F. when warmed up, the engine is going to stay healthy

Were you on the highway? Keep in mind that in ANY kind of city (stop and go or even 45mph riding) you will not see this problem. It is only on highway runs where you can figure out where the temp 'stabilizes' (gets to its lowest point)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
My bike runs at about 167-213 degrees during a normal 100 mile ride on a 75 degree day? Would this be considered normal range of temp for the bike?
Yes this is fine, but keep in mind that you will ONLY see this problem on an extended highway run when it's less than about 60F (16C) , such as going up the mountains in the morning.

Remember the magic number - 160F / 71C. Don't forget - check to see if your bike stays above this temp when it's ~60f (16C). It'd be nice to figure this out before summer - It's too late for me.. It's 70F here at night :) :conveyer:
 

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I honestly don't think Ducati would be as simple as you fear they have.

Where did you get your cold/hot map figure from ? Are you 100% sure this is correct first ??

I definitely see your concern but I don't think Ducati would roll out bikes with such a 'flaw'.

They've been doing fuel injection for more than 10 years now and I don't think that the concerns you are expressing would be anything new or detrimental otherwise it would have been changed long ago. I'm sure the temperature side of the map component wouldn't be above or below a single value but more likely multiple values.

I'm not sure about the 1098's but with my old girl you can hear the changes taking place as she warms up ie it adds extra fuel for cold starts and then gradually removes it as it warms up. To think that it won't/can't/doesn't do this between a cold start and 160 just doesn't make sense to me.
 
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