Using stock headers with full system ECU programming?

2277 Views 13 Replies 6 Participants Last post by chicken_stripper, Jun 10, 2014

CorseRob

Discussion Starter · Jun 8, 2014

Tried posting in technical, but no joy, so lets see if I have better luck here.

I need some clarification please...

First, some background -

I have been looking at multiple threads and forums and the general consensus seems to be that adding a full system exhaust will only gain you a couple extra horsepower and a little deeper exhaust note over just the slip-on. Taking that information at face value, I personally cant justify spending the extra $2000 on a full system for so little gain.

With that being said...I have also read several posts in which the author(s) claim that they are seeing results (with proper mapping) using the stock manifold and slip-on exhaust, that match and in some cases/circumstances surpass the full system exhausts.

Now to my question. What changes are required to the stock manifold to use it for a "full system" map?

I plan on purchasing Akrapovic slip-ons, a BMC air filter and having my stock ECU flashed. The questionnaire for having the ECU flashed asks if I am having a full system installed or just slip-ons. The only difference that I can see between those two options, other than size, seems to be that the full systems do not use O2 sensors and there is no exhaust servo on a full system. Couldn't I just have them flash for a full system and then remove the O2 sensors and disconnect the servo thus giving me a "full system" and picking up the benefits of that programming (minus the deeper sound obviously, unless the servo makes any difference there) like the weight reduction and loss of emissions restrictions that are placed on the bike?

I have seen that each of these thing can be done, have found the electrical connector plugs and the servo/O2 bung plugs, but nothing that actually says, if you do this, this is what constitutes a full system (again, minus the larger diameter pipes).

Am I missing something, does the bike need to keep the O2 sensors, or is it just that simple?

If it makes any difference, I am doing this to a 13 848 evo Corse.

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[email protected]

· #2 · Jun 8, 2014

Full systems use a header that is larger than the stock unit. More volume passing through. Whomever said they got better gains from a stock header and slip-ons probably rides unicorns in their spare time.

The full system map is designed to adjust fueling based on the larger volume flowing through the larger diameter headers. Using the stock header with a "full system" map is going to over fuel things. The best result with anything is using the map as a based then having it fine tuned either by a shop or by using an autotune feature with which ever fuel enhancer you've purchased.

Both Bazzaz and Dyno Jet have these autotune features.

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chicken_stripper

· #3 · Jun 8, 2014

[email protected] said:
Full systems use a header that is larger than the stock unit. More volume passing through. Whomever said they got better gains from a stock header and slip-ons probably rides unicorns in their spare time.

The full system map is designed to adjust fueling based on the larger volume flowing through the larger diameter headers. Using the stock header with a "full system" map is going to over fuel things. The best result with anything is using the map as a based then having it fine tuned either by a shop or by using an autotune feature with which ever fuel enhancer you've purchased.

Both Bazzaz and Dyno Jet have these autotune features.

Do you think, in a perfect world, the map itself is fine-tuned, removing the need for Bazzaz etc?

Also OP, are you totally sold on Akra's? There are some pretty nice carbon slip ons for sale in the For Sale section that are cheap enough you could get them and a reflash for the same price as Akra's. Something to consider anyway.

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DrgnRcr

· #4 · Jun 8, 2014

chicken_stripper said:
Do you think, in a perfect world, the map itself is fine-tuned, removing the need for Bazzaz etc?

Also OP, are you totally sold on Akra's? There are some pretty nice carbon slip ons for sale in the For Sale section that are cheap enough you could get them and a reflash for the same price as Akra's. Something to consider anyway.

Your question is confusing since Pat is recommending something like a tune, Bazzaz, Autotune, etc.

OP, a "full system" map is also taking into consideration larger diameter exhaust pipes so no, you would stand a chance of losing hp since the fuel trim would be off.

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chicken_stripper

· #5 · Jun 8, 2014

DrgnRcr said:
Your question is confusing since Pat is recommending something like a tune, Bazzaz, Autotune, etc.

OP, a "full system" map is also taking into consideration larger diameter exhaust pipes so no, you would stand a chance of losing hp since the fuel trim would be off.

i think the terminology is a bit confusing at times.

a "tune" for me is flashing a new map to the ECU.

Bazzaz, Dynojet etc simply run over the top of the map.

in theory, if your tune is spot on, you shouldn't need a Bazzaz. at least, that was my understanding...

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CorseRob

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jun 8, 2014

Thanks for the input guys. The information that I got was mostly from the other Ducati forum but I cant find the posts that listed that information...been looking for the last hour...which is unfortunate because the poster had Dyno graphs to back up his claim.

I get where you are coming from on the airflow through larger diameter pipes, but that brings up another question, most re-flash (that I have seen) do not ask what diameter system you are going to install, just slip-on or full system. It seems that most manufacturers use different diameter pipes for their full systems and with that being the case how is the fuel being adjusted for the different sizes if it doesn't know what size you are putting on? Also, with regards to the re-flash, it is my understanding that they are changing the fueling and whatever else, based on Dyno tests that they have run on these bikes and should not require a Bazzaz or PC (according to the tech that I spoke with).

As far as being sold on Akrapovic, I really don't know...I think they look the best but that's mostly what I'm basing that choice on. I know that exhaust selection is totally subjective, but it seems that looks are about the best deciding factor since performance seems to be pretty close all the way around.

I truly do not know if my question is even valid to ask because surely if it was that simple it would have been posted by now, but in theory it makes since so I wanted to get some input from people with more knowledge/experience than I have.

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[email protected]

· #7 · Jun 8, 2014

After market full systems run a 57mm pipe compared to 54mm on stock. There is a large Termi system that runs 70mm but it's more designed for the 1x98.

The problem with any map you would download is unless the guy who lives next door to you made the map, it's going to be for a different city, different state, different elevation. Unless you know what time of year the map was made and where it was made, it's only going to be a base no matter what. It'll be a base then fine tuning will come in to play.

If you flash your stock ECU with someone's map, you're locked in to it. Keep your stock ECU as is and add a fuel control with an autotune feature and now you can fine tune to whatever time of year it is, what elevation you live at etc etc etc.

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CorseRob

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jun 9, 2014

Thanks (again) [email protected] I see where you are coming from and it makes sense.

With that in mind, should I choose to go the route of having my ECU flashed, having them do it for a slip-on system, would there be any benefit to having the O2 sensors and servo disabled or do those need to stay in play and just have the servo taken out?

Im not opposed to the PC or Bazzaz, but I have a budget to get the most bang for my buck for the short term...I can add those in later, but not doable at the moment. I was quoted $1500 for the exhaust, air filter and reflash, and adding in those with the auto tune will jump me up another $600 or better.

The wife new before going into this that an exhaust was on the priority list and expects that, but if I don't take it easy for a while after that she'll probably have a conniption and hide the keys to my new Italian girlfriend...lol

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danielo

· #9 · Jun 9, 2014

The map in the stock ECU is junk. The closed loop below 5500rpm is where your troubles will be. Any piggyback will not remove that closed loop nor will it lift the throttle restrictions.

Either you reflash the ECU with a custom map or you reflash with a base map and get a piggyback to tune the entire rev range.

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chicken_stripper

· #10 · Jun 9, 2014

CorseRob said:
Thanks (again) [email protected] I see where you are coming from and it makes sense.

With that in mind, should I choose to go the route of having my ECU flashed, having them do it for a slip-on system, would there be any benefit to having the O2 sensors and servo disabled or do those need to stay in play and just have the servo taken out?

Im not opposed to the PC or Bazzaz, but I have a budget to get the most bang for my buck for the short term...I can add those in later, but not doable at the moment. I was quoted $1500 for the exhaust, air filter and reflash, and adding in those with the auto tune will jump me up another $600 or better.

The wife new before going into this that an exhaust was on the priority list and expects that, but if I don't take it easy for a while after that she'll probably have a conniption and hide the keys to my new Italian girlfriend...lol

Dude...here's my 2c

Get those $550 Carbon slip ons, a BMC filter for $80ish, buy the JPDiag writer for like $125, and do the flash & install yourself. The biggest change you'll notice with carbon slips is reduced weight and heat. And the JPDiag writer allows you to disable the exhaust valve etc anyway.

Honestly, try a DP map first - yes Bazzaz/Dynojet is a perfect solution, but the flash will get you 95% of the way there.

Installing slip-ons is a piece of cake. Just dont be afraid - get to know your bike! And think of all the cash you'll have left over for other crap!

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CorseRob

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jun 9, 2014

Thanks brother, I'll check that out...I thought ducatidiag was no longer being supported and quit looking, but after goggling the JPdiag writer, it seems that the name just changed...I will absolutely check that out! I figure its like any other computer...as long as you make a backup of the original, its pretty hard to screw it up so bad that its not fixable by loading the backup...computers I'm not scared of, just don't want to jack up a bike I have been waiting 20 years to get...I'm sure as some of the new wears off I'll feel better about tearing into it.

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jtdbsr

· #12 · Jun 9, 2014

The only catch for using DucatiDiag/JPDiag is to source the map. Contact JP he might send you the file needed after you buy the writer.

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[email protected]

· #13 · Jun 9, 2014

danielo said:
The map in the stock ECU is junk. The closed loop below 5500rpm is where your troubles will be. Any piggyback will not remove that closed loop nor will it lift the throttle restrictions.

Either you reflash the ECU with a custom map or you reflash with a base map and get a piggyback to tune the entire rev range.

The stock map on my 848 makes 123hp with no tuning and just a pair of slip-ons installed so the stock map is NOT junk. The dyno also confirmed that it's running a good air/fuel mixture throughout the rpm's. As I have said in other threads you've posted in, I think you have other problems besides your map and the Optimizer.

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chicken_stripper

· #14 · Jun 10, 2014

CorseRob said:
Thanks brother, I'll check that out...I thought ducatidiag was no longer being supported and quit looking, but after goggling the JPdiag writer, it seems that the name just changed...I will absolutely check that out! I figure its like any other computer...as long as you make a backup of the original, its pretty hard to screw it up so bad that its not fixable by loading the backup...computers I'm not scared of, just don't want to jack up a bike I have been waiting 20 years to get...I'm sure as some of the new wears off I'll feel better about tearing into it.

haha, dont worry dude, of all people i understand your trepidation. after I bought my '13 Corse, I was hesitant to even adjust my rear-sets at first. taking to your bike with tools is daunting for the uninitiated, no doubt.

the process (ECU stuff) is a complete cake-walk, and I'm happy to walk you through it if you need a hand. I am by no means a pro, but I've uploaded maps, reset my TPS etc and if I can do it, anyone can. JP is a total legend and will help you out wherever possible if you're happy to shell out for his software (which, incidentally, is amazing).

dont be ashamed to go down the professional fitment path though. i did it for a lot of my stuff in the beginning, but i started to look at labour costs in terms of money that could've been spent on mods (like equating an hour's labour to a new clutch slave etc) and just decided to bite the bullet.

good luck with whatever you decide, and let me know if you need a hand!

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