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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why the "experts" dislike 848/848 EVO's handling and how to dial the drawbacks out?

Hello all,

I have spent hours reading comparisons and watching "test" videos of the 848/848 EVO Vs the competition and almost every one of those comparisons ended with a praise for the bike's engine and a dislike (in some cases outright hatred) for the way the 848/1098 generation bikes handle..Mor specifically how they are hard to "turn-in" to a corner (at track speeds)

Both of my 998s had the same issue (as well as a numb/vague front end ) but that was over 12 years ago .

Having not ridden the 848/1098 yet myself, I can only go by what I am reading/receiving.
Although those are just mere opinions, they all seem to pretty much agree on the fact the 848/1098 chassis is hard manage, requires extra effort to turn-in ..all that costs "time" on a track.be it a track day or club-racing.
All that said, I know many people doing very fast times on the 848/1098 chassis.

So what gives.. How does one "dial-out" some of the draw backs of this chassis and where would you start?

Rake? Triple clamp? softer suspension setting? after market front forks?

Hoping the forum/ducati experts here have an opinion on this....
 

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Best way too go fast on an 848/1x98? Trade it in for an R6/RSV4.

^_^

But seriously, prepare yourself because this thread will either:

A) get ignored
B) be littered with "LetMeGoogleThatForYou" and "Have you tried the 'SEARCH' feature?" responses

.....or the very likely option C) Oh God, here it comes......
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Best way too go fast on an 848/1x98? Trade it in for an R6/RSV4.

^_^

But seriously, prepare yourself because this thread will either:

A) get ignored
B) be littered with "LetMeGoogleThatForYou" and "Have you tried the 'SEARCH' feature?" responses

.....or the very likely option C) Oh God, here it comes......

OH!

It was not my intention to "stir the pot" or offend anyone's prized possession. At the end of the day these are just motorcycles. The owners didn't design them, didn't built them , were not involved in there research and development etc..

to be offended by someone pointing a well known (or not) but contested opinion about the bike is plain silly

I saved money and drooled over the 916/996/998 platform for over 10 years before I could get one (back when $15,000 bike was like buying a $75,000 car)..to this day, for me.. No manufacturer has ever made a better looking machine than the original 916/996/998... That said, I was never blind to all the negatives of its chassis, handling and numb front end. Every thing has positives and negatives..

May be the 848 attracts a more younger crowd than the liter bikes so people dont have decades of riding/racing experience but I am sure there are a few here who are well aware of the drawbacks and are well informed/capable of dialing the bike to where its pretty darn good.
 

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Not saying people would be offended, just saying that this topic has been covered umpteen million times across every Ducati board on the Internet.

Short list:
-Adjustable offset triples (normally 30 or 28mm)
-Linear/flat rate rear link
-Adjustable rear ride height rod

More in depth things involve making sure the suspension working range is set up correctly for yor weight (spring rates, fork oil level, 'knobs & dials', etc), tire profile choices that help with steering characteristics, and most importantly getting the geometry numbers within a certain range (fork height above triples, steering head angle, rear ride height, chain length/eccentric hub adjustments, etc).

-Christian
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Not saying people would be offended, just saying that this topic has been covered umpteen million times across every Ducati board on the Internet.

Short list:
-Adjustable offset triples (normally 30 or 28mm)
-Linear/flat rate rear link
-Adjustable rear ride height rod

More in depth things involve making sure the suspension working range is set up correctly for yor weight (spring rates, fork oil level, 'knobs & dials', etc), tire profile choices that help with steering characteristics, and most importantly getting the geometry numbers within a certain range (fork height above triples, steering head angle, rear ride height, chain length/eccentric hub adjustments, etc).

-Christian
Understood and thank you.

I will search the archives.
 

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I will answer since most people don't actually know the problem.

Ducati's engine is the problem, it's too damn long.

When developing, it was a lot easier to put the crank in front of the gearbox and use a 90 degree design to balance it out better. There are so many things that make this design totally awesome, the biggest is service because everything is so spread out and frankly, easy to work on. Ducati kept this design for decades, slowly moving the engine forward in the frame and increasing the swing arm length as they shrunk the heads.

So why is engine length such a problem? Well, that comes down to optimal wheelbase and swing arm length. The longer the swing arm, the more leverage AND the more the balance of weight is pushed forward on the machine, putting more weight over the front. However, the longer the arm you have, the longer the wheelbase and of course, the slower the bike will steer, even with a steeper rake.

To re-cap, the swing arm is too short, reducing the amount of weight over the front, causing the machine to steer poorly. The nail in the coffin was putting a progressive rate link on the machine, which allows it to squat too much. This unloads even more weight from the front, making it understeer even worse.

Many people have argued over the years why Ducati choose the geometry/chassis settings they did. They had a properly setup bike, (the 749R) and it worked great. So why couldn't they use the same chassis/geometry numbers from that bike on all the other machines? It's clear they were swayed by two up riders and potentially people who were heavier and needed that extra support. Why not bring the front wheel back a bit using rake or offset changes? That's all about safety and slow speed stability, which could theoretically be a problem if you bring that front wheel closer to the cylinder head.

So Ducati stuck with the same 36mm offset, 24.5 degree rake and 500mm swing arm length with progressive rear link on pretty much every bike starting at the 916 through 1098R, with the exception of the 749R. Sure, some of those chassis, you could adjust the rake angle using an eccentric, but that adjustment makes the bike twitchy without the proper offset clamps. Ducati kept that feature on their homologation specials because they couldn't ADD IT on the race bikes.

In contrast, the factory race bikes have adjustable rake/trail, much longer swing arm (515mm) and of course linear rate links. This made the bikes pretty stable and over the years, people have simply copied Ducati's factory ideas and made them work for the average joe. So this is really the solution and it works well. 30mm offset clamps with 23.5 deg rake adjustment built into them. Linear rate rear link and shorter shock. Finally, brining that rear eccentric all the way back to maximize the amount of swing arm length to move as much weight forward as you can. All of these adjustments are easy to make, parts are radially available and the net result will be a fantastic handling Ducati.

Ohh and funny enough, Ducati did fix the engine length issue with the Panigale. So the Panigale R is the only other Ducati setup properly from the factory.
 

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IMO its all about body position, you simply need to move your butt more active on that bike.
I also ride a KTM Super Duke 990 on the track (from time to time), compared to the Duc it handles like a bicycle.
I once rode my buddys Duc 750 SS (1994), compared with that, the 848 handles like the Super Duke.

My mods regarding my 848evo are:
Öhlins 30mm cartridge
Öhlins TTX rear shock
520 chain kit
Arrow Ti slipon

... but the most significant impact in terms of handling was OZ Mag rims. Best money I've ever spend on the Duc.
 

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Forgot something ...

I also paid tribute to my age and installed 1" riser clip-ons from woodcraft. More relaxed position on the bike.

BTW the fork caps are flush to the triple clamp, because of the Öhlins cartridge ... I lost about 20mm travel when installed.

I'm not fighting for 1/10sec on the track. Just want to have good times :)
 

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Trading my 848 in for a 749R.....
If you ride on the track, it's a totally different world.

Add the 848 kit from DucShop and it produces around 135rwhp. Find a set of RS cam's, more like 143rwhp.

So more power, higher rev's, proper racing gearbox, dry clutch, proper chassis geometry, etc.

It's a heavier bike then the 848, by about 30lb and the swing arm/frame has a lot more flex. The 848/1098/1198 chassis/swingarm is a lot bette for stiffness. So that's why it's a lot easier to go quicker with that chassis.

So it's a catch 22… the 749R is a real race bike, but it's 15 year old technology.
 

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So here's my story..

I got my 1098S for my 50th birthday in 2007. When purchased it replaced my 2000 996S tack bike.

Still in my late 50's and doing regular track days in the Advanced group and I still pass more folk than pass me.

Up until last Christmas, my 1098 was still bone stock. I can honestly say I've never had any issues with the handling of the 1098, sure it doesn't turn like an R6, but neither does a GSXR1000 when compared to it's smaller siblings.

This past Christmas, I was on the fence about buying a new sports bike, I have a Tuono V4 and love how that handles so the RSV4R is at the top of the heap for me.

But, I decided to mess with the 1098. I purchased a TTX-GP shock, a Kyle Racing Linear rear link and Nichols 30mm Offset triple clamp.

Only managed two track days so far this year, but the bike feels great.

In my opinion, unless you are putting down AMA type lap times, most of the supposed issues with the 848/1098's handling really are non existent.

See any issues with the handling?



Rear facing camera, takes a while for the Panigale R and Superlegerra's to catch me.of course I didn't know there were there.

 

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Ducshop 28mm triples with 23.5 mm rake kit is amazing

What a coincidence I have the only one for sale.. Anywhere
 

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'12 848evo, '13 Hypermotard SP, '94 CBR600f2 track bike, '06 CBR600rr track bike
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If someone thinks the steering is heavy, maybe they're not man enough.
 

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leave the "experts" be. ride your bike, if you dislike it, make changes to stock parts, if you like it but still curious, make changes and record. Read the dan kyle guide though to understand what each dimension affects in theory.

i was at the same position a year ago. don't go spending thousands on parts unless :
1. you are really held behind by the parts (highly unlikely...)
2. you have money to burn and you don't care
3. you believe that the new parts will help you no matter if you are slow (complicated issue)

i did some minor changes to stock parts and now i am happier, still 15 seconds behind the lap record here. i just enjoy my 1098s. I would do the same laptimes before adjustments i am sure, but i like the hobby of adjusting.
 

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I've read a lot of reviews that complain about the 848 handling. I'm no expert but I don't see it myself. It might be because it was the first sports bike I owned so my riding style has developed to suit the bike. I don't find it difficult to turn, but I can't 'think' it round a corner either, it requires input. But it's a beautiful feeling when you get it right. That said on my first track day I way pretty tired after each session. But that's a good excuse to get fit :)
 
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